Meridian and Vital Point Death Touch

[paitingman]

Most anecdotes and legends of death touch from MA history that actually even tie back to an actual event were probably perfectly explainable medical phenomena.
People have already explained in this thread a few instances were a death blow is certainly possible.

Think back to the period in history most of these stories come from and what kind of health care was available.
Today we make full recoveries all the time from even very traumatic injuries, but the same was not true for our ancestors.
Getting in a big fight and suffering a major injury was way riskier during the time the Bubishi was written.
I'm not saying our ancestors were made of glass, but the chance of some trauma developing into a chronic issue you carried for life, or even death as a result of trauma, was certainly much higher than it is today.

 

[Tez3]

Think back to the period in history most of these stories come from and what kind of health care was available.

When people weren't even sure how humans got pregnant!

I'm not saying our ancestors were made of glass, but the chance of some trauma developing into a chronic issue you carried for life, or even death as a result of trauma, was certainly much higher than it is today.

Exactly, the biggest killer in past times was infection, even a small cut could kill you if it went septic. Many soldiers survived quite horrific injuries, amputations etc only to succumb to infections.

 

[dunc]

I don't buy the meridian-death-touch thing and have experimented with it to reach this conclusion

However, there are places on the body that have devastating effect when struck correctly (hopefully that's obvious to martial artists) and many of these methods have been lost in the transition of martial arts to sporting or spiritual endeavours

One of the main issues with these methods is that the strike, angle, fist used and in some cases the larger context of the technique needs to be pretty precise. So not only is the anatomical knowledge needed, the technical knowledge of how to set them up and deliver the strike effectively is paramount too

Unfortunately many people looking for death-touchy-type of stuff want short cuts and if anything these methods are quite advanced (& therefore require a certain amount of study and practice)

In the older Japanese traditions certain places / methods are listed as "Can cause unconsciousness and potentially death" People sometimes over interpret this to mean "death touch", but I think that's an overreach particularly as they tend to need to be hit quite hard to knock someone down or out

Hope this makes sense

D

 

[dunc]

Hi
Can you give any examples that are relatively easily tested?
Thanks
D

 

[jobo]

It is true although I doubt your going to pick it up in a book,. To activate some points you have to know fa ging and or. Explosive short power strikes,. Yang style tachi and. Southern praying mantis Kung Fu has this at very high levels,. You don't need to know much to activate alot of the basic points

whats true ? that there are locations on the body that give rise to more pain than others ? yes that is true

what in dispute is how effective these are in stopping a determiner attacker

 

[O'Malley]

Count (Juan Rapheal) Dante, well known from 1960's comic book ads, self-professed "Deadliest Man Alive" and master of Dim Mak made secret death touches cool. Kill Bill's bad guy met his end with the "five point exploding heart touch", dropping dead after 5 steps. Do such secret and forbidden techniques really exist?

Send $20 dollars to my Nigerian bank account (I must remain anonymous or my life will be forfeit) and you, too, can become a Master of Death.

Now, for serious discussion:

Some of you may be familiar with the Bubishi, wherein such things are discussed. Written/compiled in the 1700's-early 1800's? it includes the concept of Shichen, the theory based on 12 two hour cycles of blood/ki flow. It states that particular parts of the body are especially vulnerable to attack at certain times of the day. The organs and vital points on arteries or meridians in the body each have their "special time." Attacking them with this in mind can result in death, instantly, or within days or weeks.

Fantasy, or is there some truth mixed in? After all, acupuncture was thought to be fantasy in the West just a few decades ago, but is now accepted as valid.

IMO, it's a bit of a mixed bag. Some of it looks dubious to me, besides being vague (do you determine the time to strike based on the the local timezone? the position of the sun? China time? the target's individual biological rythm? what if he/she is jet-lagged?). That said, there are points in the body that are more vulnerable (chin, throat, testicles, etc.), and meridians are definitely a thing.

 

[geezer]

...and meridians are definitely a thing.

...a thing?

What kind of thing? Like lei lines? ...or chakras? ...and auras? When I was a teenager I believed in a lot of that stuff. And "magical martial arts" too. Like on the old Kung Fu TV series. Wuxia right? I guess I was "new age" before I knew what all that rubbish was. Well, we're talking the 70's, ya know! But the more I looked into it, the less convincing the so-called evidence was. For the last 40-50 years I've been a skeptic. And in all those years since then, I haven't seen any good evidence to the convince me otherwise.

Sometimes stuff like acupuncture seems to work, but it may be chance, placebo, belief system, or pure desperation ...or some other effect totally unrelated to the unscientific tradition (i.e. meridians and chi) that supposedly explains it. And the fact that people have used it, studied it, and systematized it for thousands of years proves nothing. How long have some of the screwier religions hung around? ...or faith-healing, or the system of the four "humours" and the practice of bleeding people to heal them? That dubious practice goes back to the ancient Greeks, and before them to the Egyptians. So the fact that something continues to be used for hundreds or, in the case of bloodletting, thousands of years is no proof at all!

 

[Dirty Dog]

and meridians are definitely a thing.

No, they're not. Or at least, nobody in recorded history has ever proven that they are.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Haven't experienced acupuncture myself (but very much plan to), but I've heard many successful cases. A lady I know had severe migraine issues for majority of her life, with not much helping. After some continuous acupuncture sessions, they completely disappeared. Not a single one since, and that was decades ago.

I know many don't like anecdotal stuff , but there are many cases of its success. Also many cases of it not working. Doesn't mean it's completely invalid, but that it wasn't the appropriate treatment for that person, for that time. People tend to latch onto a black and white conclusion, but don't really see the whole picture of what's actually appropriate or relevant for the person.

I've experienced kinesiology and pranic healing which both work with energy centers, meridians, chakras, energy blockages etc, and it's an incredible modality that picked up things and shifted things within me to a tee. I've known a person to go for sessions, and the kinesiologist was unable to pick up much at all... the person who went had quite an agenda, severe skepticism, and even though there was a willingness to try it, there was a significant blockage within their psyche that closed off their energy, and something within them trying to prove them wrong. So the person got what they were looking for from the session, and then concluded that it doesn't work. This plays a big part in some of this stuff, and no, I don't feel it's anything placebo-related. And no, I can't give study links [emoji14]

The mind is incredibly, incredibly powerful when a belief is deep rooted.

There's some evidence that the placebo effect can be either positive or negative, which really messes with testing on some things. I'd also be curious to read a neutral review of the approach to testing these modalities, as I suspect selection may be part of the process.

 

[O'Malley]

...a thing?

What kind of thing? Like lei lines? ...or chakras? ...and auras? When I was a teenager I believed in a lot of that stuff. And "magical martial arts" too. Like on the old Kung Fu TV series. Wuxia right? I guess I was "new age" before I knew what all that rubbish was. Well, we're talking the 70's, ya know! But the more I looked into it, the less convincing the so-called evidence was. For the last 40-50 years I've been a skeptic. And in all those years since then, I haven't seen any good evidence to the convince me otherwise.

Sometimes stuff like acupuncture seems to work, but it may be chance, placebo, belief system, or pure desperation ...or some other effect totally unrelated to the unscientific tradition (i.e. meridians and chi) that supposedly explains it. And the fact that people have used it, studied it, and systematized it for thousands of years proves nothing. How long have some of the screwier religions hung around? ...or faith-healing, or the system of the four "humours" and the practice of bleeding people to heal them? That dubious practice goes back to the ancient Greeks, and before them to the Egyptians. So the fact that something continues to be used for hundreds or, in the case of bloodletting, thousands of years is no proof at all!

A thing like a set of myofascial connections running through the body.

No, they're not. Or at least, nobody in recorded history has ever proven that they are.

I don't know what you mean exactly by "proving" that they exist, but there is some scientific literature (which I guess counts as recorded history) suggesting that acupuncture meridians correspond to lines of connective tissue called myofascial meridians, see for example https://cdn.anatomytrains.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/wilke-pdf.pdf , Review of Evidence Suggesting That the Fascia Network Could Be the Anatomical Basis for Acupoints and Meridians in the Human Body , https://www.researchgate.net/public...s_Anatomical_Evidence_of_Acupuncture_Channels.

I'm no doctor, and I'm not saying that the model used in traditional Chinese medicine is completely accurate, but I see no reason to dismiss it as dramatically as done in this thread. Looks more like a mixed bag to me or, at the very least, a topic where the evidence base needs to be strengthened in order to make conclusions. Skepticism is necessary, but so is curiosity.

Edited for clarity.

 

[Tez3]

No, they're not. Or at least, nobody in recorded history has ever proven that they are.

They are a thing of course but in geography not biology.
Meridian (geography)

 

[geezer]

... Skepticism is necessary, but so is curiosity.

Agreed.

 

[Buka]

Twice in the last twenty five years I've had doctors from American Medical Association tell me I needed surgery. Both of those times I sought second and third opinions, which said the same thing. Both of those times I instead turned to long practicing Chinese acupuncturists and continued life, and training, happily without surgery.

I remember as a kid, the advice from the American Medical Association concerning burns. "Cover the burn with Vaseline, and if none is available, use butter. I remember how much it hurt and made it worse, I remember how running the burn under cold water made it feel so much better. The AMA has since changed it's tune.

I remember as a kid dealing with a stomach ulcer for a long time. I remember at various times catching things that kids catch and being put on antibiotics for those things. I remember telling various docs that whenever I get put on antibiotics my stomach ulcers no longer bothered me. I remember the docs telling me antibiotics in no way, shape or form could help any kind of ulcer. The AMA has since changed it's tune.

Ten years ago I had worn a wrist brace for several years. It made training a real pain in in the butt, just about brought me to tears on some nights. I was diagnosed with De Quervain's tendinosis - long term tedonitis. Surgery was the only option, that or quit training. And I was told I should quit training anyway after the surgery.

A buddy of mine took me to an old Chinese acupuncturist. I went a couple times a week for three months. Never stopped training either. I haven't worn a wrist brace since, haven't had any pain, work out as hard as I always had.

I used to sincerely hope that my results with acupuncture were indeed a placebo effect. I would have been quite thrilled that my mind, my belief, was so strong that that it could heal my body. That would be the balls. But I didn't believe in it. But somehow it worked anyway.

So....you guys believe what you want. I'll continue to use the methods that work for me. And I'll betcha ten bucks I'll still be training hard for a long, long time.

 

[dvcochran]

There's some evidence that the placebo effect can be either positive or negative, which really messes with testing on some things.

Nail on the head.

 

[geezer]

So....you guys believe what you want. I'll continue to use the methods that work for me. And I'll betcha ten bucks I'll still be training hard for a long, long time.

 

[_Simon_]

Twice in the last twenty five years I've had doctors from American Medical Association tell me I needed surgery. Both of those times I sought second and third opinions, which said the same thing. Both of those times I instead turned to long practicing Chinese acupuncturists and continued life, and training, happily without surgery.

I remember as a kid, the advice from the American Medical Association concerning burns. "Cover the burn with Vaseline, and if none is available, use butter. I remember how much it hurt and made it worse, I remember how running the burn under cold water made it feel so much better. The AMA has since changed it's tune.

I remember as a kid dealing with a stomach ulcer for a long time. I remember at various times catching things that kids catch and being put on antibiotics for those things. I remember telling various docs that whenever I get put on antibiotics my stomach ulcers no longer bothered me. I remember the docs telling me antibiotics in no way, shape or form could help any kind of ulcer. The AMA has since changed it's tune.

Ten years ago I had worn a wrist brace for several years. It made training a real pain in in the butt, just about brought me to tears on some nights. I was diagnosed with De Quervain's tendinosis - long term tedonitis. Surgery was the only option, that or quit training. And I was told I should quit training anyway after the surgery.

A buddy of mine took me to an old Chinese acupuncturist. I went a couple times a week for three months. Never stopped training either. I haven't worn a wrist brace since, haven't had any pain, work out as hard as I always had.

I used to sincerely hope that my results with acupuncture were indeed a placebo effect. I would have been quite thrilled that my mind, my belief, was so strong that that it could heal my body. That would be the balls. But I didn't believe in it. But somehow it worked anyway.

So....you guys believe what you want. I'll continue to use the methods that work for me. And I'll betcha ten bucks I'll still be training hard for a long, long time.

Love it! Thanks for posting Buka, awesome hearing this sorta thing

 

[dunc]

Twice in the last twenty five years I've had doctors from American Medical Association tell me I needed surgery. Both of those times I sought second and third opinions, which said the same thing. Both of those times I instead turned to long practicing Chinese acupuncturists and continued life, and training, happily without surgery.

I remember as a kid, the advice from the American Medical Association concerning burns. "Cover the burn with Vaseline, and if none is available, use butter. I remember how much it hurt and made it worse, I remember how running the burn under cold water made it feel so much better. The AMA has since changed it's tune.

I remember as a kid dealing with a stomach ulcer for a long time. I remember at various times catching things that kids catch and being put on antibiotics for those things. I remember telling various docs that whenever I get put on antibiotics my stomach ulcers no longer bothered me. I remember the docs telling me antibiotics in no way, shape or form could help any kind of ulcer. The AMA has since changed it's tune.

Ten years ago I had worn a wrist brace for several years. It made training a real pain in in the butt, just about brought me to tears on some nights. I was diagnosed with De Quervain's tendinosis - long term tedonitis. Surgery was the only option, that or quit training. And I was told I should quit training anyway after the surgery.

A buddy of mine took me to an old Chinese acupuncturist. I went a couple times a week for three months. Never stopped training either. I haven't worn a wrist brace since, haven't had any pain, work out as hard as I always had.

I used to sincerely hope that my results with acupuncture were indeed a placebo effect. I would have been quite thrilled that my mind, my belief, was so strong that that it could heal my body. That would be the balls. But I didn't believe in it. But somehow it worked anyway.

So....you guys believe what you want. I'll continue to use the methods that work for me. And I'll betcha ten bucks I'll still be training hard for a long, long time.

Great post - thanks

I believe that you don't have to understand something to be able to use it and that traditional healing methods have their place
The issue with these things is that they tend to overreach beyond the areas where they are effective

Returning to the martial arts context:
- In my view tai chi masters use the mental model of qi (etc) to produce structurally sound biomechanical movements
- Hitting & to a lesser extent gripping particular points on the body can be effective if studied and done correctly
- Screwing with people's minds, having a reputation of being able to kill with a single touch, etc are viable martial arts strategies
- However, I've not met anyone who can produce a meaningful effect on me with "meridian touch techniques" or similar
- I am very open to experimenting with this because it would be awesome if it were true

 

[dvcochran]

- Screwing with people's minds, having a reputation of being able to kill with a single touch, etc are viable martial arts strategies

I think mainstream society has debunked this enough that they are not going to be 'screwed with' by someone talking about.

 

[dunc]

Yeah I tend to agree, but then again this thread...