Meridian and Vital Point Death Touch

[skribs]

Acupuncture has been around for over 1000 years, and pressure point striking for at least 700. Would they have this longevity if there was no value to them? They have been passed on by learned men: Imperial physicians and warrior priests who studied, and experimented on, human subjects (dead and alive).

So, my gut tells me there is something to it. The 2 hour cycles may be a little far-fetched, but is it possible some organs or areas are more vulnerable in the morning or night diurnal cycles? Doesn't one's blood pressure, digestion and other functions vary during the 24 hour day?

I remain open-minded on this subject.

Pressure points as a cause of temporary pain I'll buy. There are points where the nerves bunch up or are more vulnerable.

Pressure points as having some extra mystical effect is snake oil. Probably because people didn't know what nerves were at that point in time.

 

[isshinryuronin]

How long has astrology been around?

Yes, the part of astrology dealing with one's future we know to be BS.

BUT, the early astrologers were also the first astronomers and made many discoveries and calculations that laid down the foundations for that science. So, there was a good chunk of truth and reality mixed in. I think it's the same with the subject at hand.

 

[drop bear]

Yes, the part of astrology dealing with one's future we know to be BS.

BUT, the early astrologers were also the first astronomers and made many discoveries and calculations that laid down the foundations for that science. So, there was a good chunk of truth and reality mixed in. I think it's the same with the subject at hand.

Facts that leads to a wrong conclusion isn't partial BS. It is kind of all BS. It is those little flights of fancy that lead to massive misconceptions.

Which is one of my major bug bears about martial arts.

The thing about facts is we can generally pick and choose. So an ice wall is fact and every video that NASA puts out is anecdotal.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yes, the part of astrology dealing with one's future we know to be BS.

BUT, the early astrologers were also the first astronomers and made many discoveries and calculations that laid down the foundations for that science. So, there was a good chunk of truth and reality mixed in. I think it's the same with the subject at hand.

Astronomy is real. Astrology is nonsense.
Neurology is real. Death Touch is nonsense.

 

[wab25]

Neurology is real. Death Touch is nonsense.

I was hoping to get your feedback on the studies being done, that do show measurable effects from acupuncture. In post #10 here, I had posted an article from WebMD, discussing some of those findings. Is all of acupuncture nonsense because Death Touch is nonsense?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I was hoping to get your feedback on the studies being done, that do show measurable effects from acupuncture. In post #10 here, I had posted an article from WebMD, discussing some of those findings. Is all of acupuncture nonsense because Death Touch is nonsense?

It's a pretty much pointless link. Lots of claims, no supporting data. For example, the article has a big link that says 'a study showed that acupuncture was better than no acupuncture' but if you click the ink, it takes you back to the top of the same article. It's just a loop.
As for treating chronic pain with acupuncture... an awful lot of things have a large psychiatric component. From chronic pain to cyclic vomiting to headaches to... it's called somaticization. That is one reason why psychiatric meds are part of their treatment. And one reason why the placebo effect can also be part of their treatment.
Does that mean all acupuncture is nonsense? Not necessarily. I'm all for studying pretty much anything that might help. But that requires good science, and to date I've not seen any good science that supports acupuncture as anything other than a placebo. And that's OK. If a placebo helps you (generic you), then go for it.

 

[wab25]

Thanks for taking the time to answer. And sorry for the quality of the article I linked... I thought that something from WebMD would have been better than a random Wiki page... but I guess I learned something. (I didn't realize that all the links to studies, were links back to the same article. I didn't check them, because with my lack of medical training, I was not expecting to understand much... had they linked to the real studies... my bad there.)

I do run into folks talking about studies being made about this stuff, with results. But, in your opinion (and I will poke around a little more myself) I take it that none of the studies have shown more effect than the placebo effect? (the article had even talked about using a control group, a placebo group and an acupuncture group... but unfortunately the link went to the top of the article again )

 

[pdg]

the article had even talked about using a control group, a placebo group and an acupuncture group

It seems you misunderstand the term 'placebo'.

And if those groups were mentioned in a WebMD article, then really it just highlights the (massive lack of) quality and knowledge on that site.



With, say, a drug in pill form, or an injectable liquid, a comparison can be done with a placebo - sugar pills, saline injection, etc. You'd have a control group who get nothing administered, a group where the drug is administered and a group where a placebo is administered. Only the control group should know which group they are in as they get given nothing - the other two groups shouldn't be informed as to whether they are getting the drug or not.


For acupuncture, it's not physically possible to make the same comparison - unless you expect to be able to poke needles into them...



So, basically, the placebo effect is that you can get the same results from an inert substance as you get from a 'real' drug, if the person believes they are taking the real drug.

With acupuncture, it's entirely possible that acupuncture itself is the placebo - in that it works only because the subjects believe it will work. How do you actually make a scientific comparison when that is the case, and what would it be possible to compare it to?


Thing is, it's difficult. Belief can cause measurable physiological responses in both ways - placebos can work because of belief, and real meds can fail if the subject thinks they'll fail...

Therefore, proponents will say it only fails because the subject has been programmed to think it'll fail.

Like with hypnotherapy. My sister-in-law spent a couple of hundred pounds on hypnotherapy to quit smoking, and never quit smoking. The hypnotherapist said that she made the treatment fail.

 

[wab25]

It seems you misunderstand the term 'placebo'.

No... I read this from the article:

Acupuncture has long been recognized as an effective treatment for chronic pain. In 2012, a study found acupuncture was better than no acupuncture or simulated acupuncture for the treatment of four chronic pain conditions

I took that to mean that the simulated acupuncture, was where needles were used, just not on the correct points for the "placebo" group and on the correct points for the test group. I failed to see that the link to the "study" was a link back to the start of the article. Again, my bad there.

 

[pdg]

No... I read this from the article:
I took that to mean that the simulated acupuncture, was where needles were used, just not on the correct points for the "placebo" group and on the correct points for the test group. I failed to see that the link to the "study" was a link back to the start of the article. Again, my bad there.

Fair enough.

If that study actually exists it would be interesting to read it, and likely much more interesting to read the declaration of interest and funding section...

I will say though that I didn't read your link, because every single thing I've ever looked at on WebMD has directly cited either itself or discredited material - as a source of medical information it's barely any better than the tabloid press.


The only way it can possibly be interpreted as any good at all is that when the self diagnosis system tells you that you're pregnant with cancerous ebola it might just scare you enough that you go see a real doctor.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It seems you misunderstand the term 'placebo'.

And if those groups were mentioned in a WebMD article, then really it just highlights the (massive lack of) quality and knowledge on that site.



With, say, a drug in pill form, or an injectable liquid, a comparison can be done with a placebo - sugar pills, saline injection, etc. You'd have a control group who get nothing administered, a group where the drug is administered and a group where a placebo is administered. Only the control group should know which group they are in as they get given nothing - the other two groups shouldn't be informed as to whether they are getting the drug or not.


For acupuncture, it's not physically possible to make the same comparison - unless you expect to be able to poke needles into them...



So, basically, the placebo effect is that you can get the same results from an inert substance as you get from a 'real' drug, if the person believes they are taking the real drug.

With acupuncture, it's entirely possible that acupuncture itself is the placebo - in that it works only because the subjects believe it will work. How do you actually make a scientific comparison when that is the case, and what would it be possible to compare it to?


Thing is, it's difficult. Belief can cause measurable physiological responses in both ways - placebos can work because of belief, and real meds can fail if the subject thinks they'll fail...

Therefore, proponents will say it only fails because the subject has been programmed to think it'll fail.

Like with hypnotherapy. My sister-in-law spent a couple of hundred pounds on hypnotherapy to quit smoking, and never quit smoking. The hypnotherapist said that she made the treatment fail.

For clarification, the placebo for acupuncture is “sham acupuncture”. Basically they stick needles in you randomly and compare it to the “scientific placement of needles” acupuncturists learn.

 

[pdg]

For clarification, the placebo for acupuncture is “sham acupuncture”. Basically they stick needles in you randomly and compare it to the “scientific placement of needles” acupuncturists learn.

According to one study I did actually manage to find sparse details of (a convoluted path through the NHS and BMJ sites to a redacted document behind a paywall), the sham acupuncture was conducted with blunt needles pushed into the same areas but without piercing the skin.

There was no conclusive difference between that and sharp needles when it was in an area that the subject couldn't see...


There are literally thousands of studies mentioned - most cannot be found easily, of those that can the only ones I can find that have truly positive results don't follow good practice (i.e. "we applied needles and the subject said they felt better" - no control or comparison and very small pools).

Surely if it worked to the extent some claim it could be shown to do so in properly conducted peer reviewed studies and such would have happened by now.

I've spent enough of my time on it now to draw a personal conclusion that need not hold any weight with anyone else:

Just so long as you have no blood clotting issues, the practitioner is knowledgeable enough to not cause a haemorrhage (or other side effect), decent hygiene is maintained and it's your own personal decision (it's not something foisted upon kids by hippy dippy parents in lieu of vaccines or other modern medicine) then it's unlikely to cause any harm and if you believe hard enough then it might just work.

Basically, until anyone (anyone at all) can show me some real evidence of efficacy I'm putting it in the same basket as hypnotherapy and aura cleansing.

 

[Tez3]

From the NHS, a straightforward page about acupuncture.
Acupuncture

 

[pdg]

From the NHS, a straightforward page about acupuncture.
Acupuncture

There are other NHS pages detailing how funding for acupuncture has been reduced due to lack of proven effectiveness, and that NICE only recommends it as a complementary treatment for a tiny handful of conditions.

 

[Tez3]

There are other NHS pages detailing how funding for acupuncture has been reduced due to lack of proven effectiveness, and that NICE only recommends it as a complementary treatment for a tiny handful of conditions.

I didn't say the NHS were approving or claiming it worked, they were just pointing out what it was, where to find it if you want it and that mostly likely you'd have to pay for. It also says that NICE only approves of it for two conditions. They point out that it's not scientifically approved as well as what modern practitioners and traditional ones say it does.

 

[pdg]

I didn't say the NHS were approving or claiming it worked, they were just pointing out what it was, where to find it if you want it and that mostly likely you'd have to pay for. It also says that NICE only approves of it for two conditions. They point out that it's not scientifically approved as well as what modern practitioners and traditional ones say it does.

So in essence, we're sort of agreeing on their view as far as I can see.

Your first reply above did come across as almost a bit of a challenge to what I said, mainly due to timing in hindsight - so if that wasn't the case and it was purely an information post then disregard any 'attitude' in my subsequent posts.

 

[Tez3]

So in essence, we're sort of agreeing on their view as far as I can see.

Your first reply above did come across as almost a bit of a challenge to what I said, mainly due to timing in hindsight - so if that wasn't the case and it was purely an information post then disregard any 'attitude' in my subsequent posts.

It was purely for information, I didn't quote you or anyone else for that matter so wasn't 'aimed' at you, it's just a page about acupuncture that leans neither one way or another so people can make their own minds up.

 

[marques]

Count (Juan Rapheal) Dante, well known from 1960's comic book ads, self-professed "Deadliest Man Alive" and master of Dim Mak made secret death touches cool. Kill Bill's bad guy met his end with the "five point exploding heart touch", dropping dead after 5 steps. Do such secret and forbidden techniques really exist?

Send $20 dollars to my Nigerian bank account (I must remain anonymous or my life will be forfeit) and you, too, can become a Master of Death.

Now, for serious discussion:

Some of you may be familiar with the Bubishi, wherein such things are discussed. Written/compiled in the 1700's-early 1800's? it includes the concept of Shichen, the theory based on 12 two hour cycles of blood/ki flow. It states that particular parts of the body are especially vulnerable to attack at certain times of the day. The organs and vital points on arteries or meridians in the body each have their "special time." Attacking them with this in mind can result in death, instantly, or within days or weeks.

Fantasy, or is there some truth mixed in? After all, acupuncture was thought to be fantasy in the West just a few decades ago, but is now accepted as valid.

Acupuncture works where other stuff fails, fails where other stuff works. Or sometimes it works better than others, as any medicine or treatment. Tested on myself as well, normally after conventional stuff failed (as most people do... )

The main difference is actually in the subjectivity of the diagnostic and treatment. Possibly, same treatment for different western disease names, or different treatments for the same western disease label. You need a good specialist; there is no agreed guideline that a doctor could quickly check. And better to stop here.

I worked with old (60+yrs) people, the worst people for acupuncture and any other treatment, and got 60% very good results, 20% some improvement, 20% any significant improvement. All placebo?

The downside is you need to put a lot of time (during months) and money in it, instead of a morning pill...

Organs cycles is part of Chinese medicine theory. Maybe we could easily analyse big data from hospitals, but I cannot tell you how true or useful it may be.

Back pain (kidney) at 6pm could indicate organ weakness at its lower energy level. But why is it not just bad posture / heavy job all day? Who knows? Any big data man around?

PS: For long lasting results, you need also Chinese herbs and new life habits. Unless it is a fresh mild issue, needles will just aliviate (as pain). With herbs and full pack you're fine for decades after last medical visit.

 

[jobo]

It seems you misunderstand the term 'placebo'.

And if those groups were mentioned in a WebMD article, then really it just highlights the (massive lack of) quality and knowledge on that site.



With, say, a drug in pill form, or an injectable liquid, a comparison can be done with a placebo - sugar pills, saline injection, etc. You'd have a control group who get nothing administered, a group where the drug is administered and a group where a placebo is administered. Only the control group should know which group they are in as they get given nothing - the other two groups shouldn't be informed as to whether they are getting the drug or not.


For acupuncture, it's not physically possible to make the same comparison - unless you expect to be able to poke needles into them...



So, basically, the placebo effect is that you can get the same results from an inert substance as you get from a 'real' drug, if the person believes they are taking the real drug.

With acupuncture, it's entirely possible that acupuncture itself is the placebo - in that it works only because the subjects believe it will work. How do you actually make a scientific comparison when that is the case, and what would it be possible to compare it to?


Thing is, it's difficult. Belief can cause measurable physiological responses in both ways - placebos can work because of belief, and real meds can fail if the subject thinks they'll fail...

Therefore, proponents will say it only fails because the subject has been programmed to think it'll fail.

Like with hypnotherapy. My sister-in-law spent a couple of hundred pounds on hypnotherapy to quit smoking, and never quit smoking. The hypnotherapist said that she made the treatment fail.

your rather missing the point that if '' acupuncture works'' it works it doesn't matter why it works

i has acupuncture on the NHS a couple of decades ago for a very serious back problem and it worked in substantially reducing the pain, i care little about if it was a placibo my pain reduced

 

[_Simon_]

Haven't experienced acupuncture myself (but very much plan to), but I've heard many successful cases. A lady I know had severe migraine issues for majority of her life, with not much helping. After some continuous acupuncture sessions, they completely disappeared. Not a single one since, and that was decades ago.

I know many don't like anecdotal stuff , but there are many cases of its success. Also many cases of it not working. Doesn't mean it's completely invalid, but that it wasn't the appropriate treatment for that person, for that time. People tend to latch onto a black and white conclusion, but don't really see the whole picture of what's actually appropriate or relevant for the person.

I've experienced kinesiology and pranic healing which both work with energy centers, meridians, chakras, energy blockages etc, and it's an incredible modality that picked up things and shifted things within me to a tee. I've known a person to go for sessions, and the kinesiologist was unable to pick up much at all... the person who went had quite an agenda, severe skepticism, and even though there was a willingness to try it, there was a significant blockage within their psyche that closed off their energy, and something within them trying to prove them wrong. So the person got what they were looking for from the session, and then concluded that it doesn't work. This plays a big part in some of this stuff, and no, I don't feel it's anything placebo-related. And no, I can't give study links [emoji14]

The mind is incredibly, incredibly powerful when a belief is deep rooted.