McGregor vs Khabib

[ShotoNoob]

Maia vs Silva.

But I tend to agree. Wrestling is central in MMA, either to go to the ground or to avoid it.

We never got to see Maia versus Stephen Thompson.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I luv how BJJ perpetually concludes it's superiority as a martial art, by using MMA examples where the striking is mediocre to horrible. And please, stop quoting Royce Gracie's 'success.' Matt Hughes, a wrestler, flattened him like a pancake.

If you're talking about the video I linked, it's talking about Conor vs Khabib. The idea that Conor McGregor's striking is "mediocre to horrible" is laughable. If you're going to bring Royce Gracie into it, he managed to defeat Gerard Gordeau (world champion Savate, 8x Dutch Kyokushin karate champion) and Art Jimmerson (was 29-5 as a pro boxer at the time of their match).

There has been so much faulting of TMA by the MMA business machine... the competitors & coaches of course on board. If TMA striking is so wanting, why don't they suit up in karate gi's and show us so in another venue.

Did you actually watch the video you were replying to? Rener and Ryron weren't trashing TMA. They were talking about its virtues in developing character. They explicitly said that if you have to choose between taking your kid to a MMA gym which doesn't promote good character and a more classic martial arts gym which does teach good character (karate, TKD, or whatever), sign them up for the latter (regardless of their relative strengths in the fighting skills department).

BTW - Rener and Ryron would probably regard BJJ as a TMA, so they wouldn't buy in to the BJJ vs MMA dichotomy.

 

[ShotoNoob]

If you're talking about the video I linked, it's talking about Conor vs Khabib.

Yes. The YT Video hosted by Rener & Ryron.

The idea that Conor McGregor's striking is "mediocre to horrible" is laughable.

Well, with the advent of MMA, especially the early UFC, there has been this "idea," as you call it, that MMA somehow sets the standard for realistic martial arts. MMA, though is fraught with certain practices, and draws a certain type of individual into its' sports competition / media business. Frankly, IMO the striking by the vast majority is mediocre to horrible, as a group.

Conor McGregor has certainly enjoyed great competitive MMA success. That you would find a challenge of his striking skill laughable, hankers back to my statement just above. Should you follow some of the travails of the MMA competitors, which you intimate that you do, you'll find Conor's last victim Eddie Alvarez was hailed by the MMA community has having great boxing. Destroyed by Conor. Before that, there was super Muay Thai striker and long-time UFC Champion Jose Aldo also hailed as the best striker of all time. Destroyed by Conor. Then we had tough guy, Chad Mendes, an excellent wrestler and power hitter, destroyed by Conor.

My point Tony, is MMA has a certain character & quality of martial art participants. However, that standard is determined by the particular participants who like and are geared to such sport type fighting and so influenced by that. My illustration with Conor's recent successes are meant to also show that that standard has been a moving one, prior "standards" of top martial arts replaced once new talent comes along.

Traditional martial arts rises above of that relative bias by setting forth a curriculum and training regimen developed by any number of master's in depth study over very long period's of time, of what makes martial arts, martial arts and hence produced a uniform standard which transcends individual styles. More sport oriented styles typified by boxing have also done a similar study; hence here we have the "sweet science." In tune with your grappling leanings, perhaps Khabib's Sambo art makes a fine example there.

This debate about TMA vs. MMA goes on & on and makes for great forum fodder. The answer is found by examining the underlying fundamentals of each / any art and going from there. Serious study and practice. We see that process with Simon's recent tournament participation, and his notation of his progresses & setbacks. He prevailed over some much senior ranks, didn't he?

 

[Headhunter]

Yes. The YT Video hosted by Rener & Ryron.



Well, with the advent of MMA, especially the early UFC, there has been this "idea," as you call it, that MMA somehow sets the standard for realistic martial arts. MMA, though is fraught with certain practices, and draws a certain type of individual into its' sports competition / media business. Frankly, IMO the striking by the vast majority is mediocre to horrible, as a group.

Conor McGregor has certainly enjoyed great competitive MMA success. That you would find a challenge of his striking skill laughable, hankers back to my statement just above. Should you follow some of the travails of the MMA competitors, which you intimate that you do, you'll find Conor's last victim Eddie Alvarez was hailed by the MMA community has having great boxing. Destroyed by Conor. Before that, there was super Muay Thai striker and long-time UFC Champion Jose Aldo also hailed as the best striker of all time. Destroyed by Conor. Then we had tough guy, Chad Mendes, an excellent wrestler and power hitter, destroyed by Conor.

My point Tony, is MMA has a certain character & quality of martial art participants. However, that standard is determined by the particular participants who like and are geared to such sport type fighting and so influenced by that. My illustration with Conor's recent successes are meant to also show that that standard has been a moving one, prior "standards" of top martial arts replaced once new talent comes along.

Traditional martial arts rises above of that relative bias by setting forth a curriculum and training regimen developed by any number of master's in depth study over very long period's of time, of what makes martial arts, martial arts and hence produced a uniform standard which transcends individual styles. More sport oriented styles typified by boxing have also done a similar study; hence here we have the "sweet science." In tune with your grappling leanings, perhaps Khabib's Sambo art makes a fine example there.

This debate about TMA vs. MMA goes on & on and makes for great forum fodder. The answer is found by examining the underlying fundamentals of each / any art and going from there. Serious study and practice. We see that process with Simon's recent tournament participation, and his notation of his progresses & setbacks. He prevailed over some much senior ranks, didn't he?

Just stop buddy, I'm not the biggest fan of some aspects of Mma but saying it only attracts certain is just ignorant.

 

[ShotoNoob]

If you're talking about the video I linked, it's talking about Conor vs Khabib. The idea that Conor McGregor's striking is "mediocre to horrible" is laughable.

Tony, you really covered a lot of ground with your Gracie BJJ post-fight breakdown. These contests are always fascinating to see how the competitive forces all play out. I would certainly concur that MMA with it's full contact and breadth of stylistic competitors makes for a superb laboratory for martial artists to test one's skills. But again, I feel we have to qualify that standard by the venue's environment and the specific population of participants.

If you're going to bring Royce Gracie into it, he managed to defeat Gerard Gordeau (world champion Savate, 8x Dutch Kyokushin karate champion) and Art Jimmerson (was 29-5 as a pro boxer at the time of their match).

I deliberately brought Royce Gracie into it. IMO, Royce & BJJ were over-hyped and their UFC beginnings track record promotional as much as martial MMA remains with that characteristic today. UFC match makers decide who fights and who doesn't and whom. The Gracie's original promo vids versus "strikers" were entirely laughable.

As a martial art, I also believe Gracie BJJ has an excellent design and is very pragmatic compared to say the more traditional grappling art of say Judo, upon which BJJ is based. The Gracie's brought a lot of innovation to some of the then practices of Judo. BJJ I feel also suits the more physically-oriented MMA competitors which we see in that venue.

In terms of striking effectiveness, Gracie BJJ and now a resurgence in wrestling have shown how ill prepared many strikers are for a grappling attack or tactic. The key work in my mind, however, is PREPARATION. Although the style was striking, we see just in Simon's recent tournament how he was unprepared for certain tactics, as were his more senior opponents since since Simon took the medals.

In terms of the Gerard Gordeau's, the Art Jimmerson's, we can look to these past champions as standards. But, they are not absolutes and are limited and suffer from the same qualifications that I posed about MMA. Traditional martial arts examples can be equally as fallible because people are fallible. Pointing to some role model, however appealing, is inescapably subjective.

I myself do no focus on some kick boxing champion or TMA master. The art is my standard and my instructors are my guide, they too like me, are fallible. I note that Martin Kampman who was a karate / kick-boxing champion and head striking coach for the MMA school Team, Alpha Male, got devastatingly KO'd by Jony Hendricks, a wrestler, after which I think Martin retired. So just citing some names doesn't really inspire me at all. I look to the standards represented by instructors.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Just stop buddy, I'm not the biggest fan of some aspects of Mma but saying it only attracts certain is just ignorant.

ONLY is not what I said. There is a definite difference as a generality, IMO. And if you disagree, disagree with an explanation.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Did you actually watch the video you were replying to? Rener and Ryron weren't trashing TMA. They were talking about its virtues in developing character. They explicitly said that if you have to choose between taking your kid to a MMA gym which doesn't promote good character and a more classic martial arts gym which does teach good character (karate, TKD, or whatever), sign them up for the latter (regardless of their relative strengths in the fighting skills department).

All makes sense to me. The virtue aspect is a separate issue from the effectiveness aspect. The first is morality, the second is technical. All sports let's start with wrestling, presume to promote sportsmanship. I think we're on the same wavelength there.

BTW - Rener and Ryron would probably regard BJJ as a TMA, so they wouldn't buy in to the BJJ vs MMA dichotomy.

That's a very good question, and which has been raised with Judo versus say the Ju Jitsu's Judo was developed from. I think the only way to pragmatically address that is to look at how the practitioner approaches the art. I'm already stirring up the native interest groups, so I'll pause there.

For illustration though, I would call wrestling more of a sport method which relies on physical ability, strength and so on. I would place BJJ more to the TMA side compared to wrestling because there are more tactical considerations, and more technicals to support that. BJJ is more martial in applications, with submissions including the joint locks, chokes, holds, versus sport wrestling which is pinning the opponent to the ground.

 

[Headhunter]

ONLY is not what I said. There is a definite difference as a generality, IMO. And if you disagree, disagree with an explanation.

Pretty much every single fighter in Mma has come from traditional martial arts it's all just a name

 

[Buka]

I haven't seen the original Gracie promo vids in a long time. I'll have to dig them up, I really liked them.

And I think they had a positive influence in striking schools across the country.

 

[Tez3]

Pretty much every single fighter in Mma has come from traditional martial arts it's all just a name

As well as all the techniques and styles being TMA! I'm not sure what some people think the martial arts in MMA are actually from!
when asked by people who don't know what it is I usually give a simple answer ...… it's all the martial arts you find in the Olympics only they are all done in the same match, Judo, wrestling, boxing and TKD. It's a simplistic answer of course but it does explain it to those who don't know anything especially the ones who tend to call it 'human cock fighting'.

 

[_Simon_]

This debate about TMA vs. MMA goes on & on and makes for great forum fodder. The answer is found by examining the underlying fundamentals of each / any art and going from there. Serious study and practice. We see that process with Simon's recent tournament participation, and his notation of his progresses & setbacks. He prevailed over some much senior ranks, didn't he?

...

Although the style was striking, we see just in Simon's recent tournament how he was unprepared for certain tactics, as were his more senior opponents since since Simon took the medals.

Thanks for the shout-out! I'm here every Too-sd'y and Thursd'y nights! Try the veal!

 

[ShotoNoob]

Pretty much every single fighter in Mma has come from traditional martial arts it's all just a name

Okay then, it's all explained.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I haven't seen the original Gracie promo vids in a long time. I'll have to dig them up, I really liked them.

And I think they had a positive influence in striking schools across the country.

For the ones who need the wake up call, I'd be afraid for them if it didn't.

 

[Headhunter]

Okay then, it's all explained.

Doesn't seem like there's much point explaining things with you

 

[ShotoNoob]

Doesn't seem like there's much point explaining things with you

I said the same thing about you (to myself).