Maybe it is just me ?

[Burnerbob]

Maybe it's just me, but notice all the people who bash American Pioneers.
Peter Urban who founded USA GoJu, Richard Barathay who took American Combat Karate one step further.
Bruce Lee founded Jeet Kune Do, no bashing. Edmund Parker American Kenpo. Wally Jay- Small Circle Jiu Jitsu.
Is it because these men were of Oriental linage. I think all of the above added to the world of Martial Arts. JMO.

 

[terryl965]

OK and your point is what with this thread?

 

[tshadowchaser]

If you are referring to just the martial arts, then I would have to say that many people used to bash any system that was not what they belonged to. Systems where more closed and if you did not belong to that system “you did not know squat”.

If you founded your own system you where a renegade and had to prove yourself and your system. Until you passed the test of time you where just that guy that thought he knew it all.

 

[Burnerbob]

OK and your point is what with this thread?

Re-read it you will understand.

 

[terryl965]

Re-read it you will understand.

I understand the qustion, just do not understand what you are looking for reinsurance about the above, validation or what. I believe there was alot of folks that made great contribution to MA that alot of folks call a joke. Does it brother me or them no not in any since what so ever.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Count Dante may have been one of the biggest pioneers in the martial arts of this country. His ill fortune and infamy aside he did bring the idea of studying the martial arts to many. He was one of the first that I can recall ever using publications to promote himself and make some money for it. His adds on the back of comics and in other medium brought to the attention of many that there was such a thing as martial arts. Yet for these achievements he is not recognized he is only remembered for the “dojo Wars”

Do we bash pioneers yep they need to "prove their worth " before we will sing their praises

 

[YoungMan]

Many of the American-born pioneers have been nothing more than publicity whores, out to exploit martial arts for money. They had little to no appreciation for martial arts philosophy, simply seeing karate and other styles as simply a means to more effectively hurt people. In fact, some of them have been downright contemptuous of Oriental philosophy and culture. Maybe they had bad experiences in WWII, Korea, or Vietnam.
An American Instructor who understands and appreciates the Oriental background of their style I have no trouble with. Unfortunately, many of them are not like that.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Both Parker and Lee have their share of critics. I haven't heard anything bad about Wally Jay, but that doesn't mean it's not out there. No matter who you are or what you do, someone somewhere will take a shot at you....usually after you're dead and can't defend yourself.

 

[Burnerbob]

Many of the American-born pioneers have been nothing more than publicity whores, out to exploit martial arts for money. They had little to no appreciation for martial arts philosophy, simply seeing karate and other styles as simply a means to more effectively hurt people. In fact, some of them have been downright contemptuous of Oriental philosophy and culture. Maybe they had bad experiences in WWII, Korea, or Vietnam.
An American Instructor who understands and appreciates the Oriental background of their style I have no trouble with. Unfortunately, many of them are not like that.

I have met many so called Oriental Master's who are in it just for the money, broke from the traditional yet insist that they are teaching true "Bushido".
Case in point a Korean Sambunam in the '70's claimed to be a 10th degree in Tae Kwon Do. When I mentioned that General Hi limited black belts to only Th, his answer was "This is my style". I said then call it Lee Kwon Do. He said no one would sign up if he did that.

 

[terryl965]

Both Parker and Lee have their share of critics. I haven't heard anything bad about Wally Jay, but that doesn't mean it's not out there. No matter who you are or what you do, someone somewhere will take a shot at you....usually after you're dead and can't defend yourself.

This is soo true

 

[Drac]

I have met many so called Oriental Master's who are in it just for the money, broke from the traditional yet insist that they are teaching true "Bushido".
Case in point a Korean Sambunam in the '70's claimed to be a 10th degree in Tae Kwon Do. When I mentioned that General Hi limited black belts to only Th, his answer was "This is my style". I said then call it Lee Kwon Do. He said no one would sign up if he did that.

THere are charlatans is EVERY discipline..Ignore them, they usually get what they deserve in the end...

 

[Burnerbob]

Both Parker and Lee have their share of critics. I haven't heard anything bad about Wally Jay, but that doesn't mean it's not out there. No matter who you are or what you do, someone somewhere will take a shot at you....usually after you're dead and can't defend yourself.

Thank you. Judging someone from reading in magazines is not the same as meeting in person, however those mentioned are no longer with us for the skeptical to meet and learn.

 

[stickarts]

Both Parker and Lee have their share of critics. I haven't heard anything bad about Wally Jay, but that doesn't mean it's not out there. No matter who you are or what you do, someone somewhere will take a shot at you....usually after you're dead and can't defend yourself.

I agree with this. Anyone who makes big changes and becomes successful will usually have critics. I also have never heard a bad word About Wally Jay. I attended his seminars, promoted a seminar with him, and spent a little time with him, and you couldn't meet a nicer person. You also don't doubt him once he puts a lock on you. Wally Jay said it best: "Pain makes believers"

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

Every martial art had to come from somewhere. It wasn't like *poof* and it's there. People have been learning and refining ways to bash each other over the head for millenia and will continue to do so in a changing social environment.
Personally I've never been a great believer in the art being as powerful as the man. If you take a truly great practitioner of an art and put him against a lame excuse making practitoner of another art then the superior practitioner wins.

 

[shihansmurf]

QUOTE]I have met many so called Oriental Master's who are in it just for the money, broke from the traditional yet insist that they are teaching true "Bushido".[/QUOTE] Burnerbob

Amen.

Sometimes it seems that many folks only want to adhere to the customs that profit them and discard the ones that don't. While I don't personally have a great deal of use for most of the "ancient" traditions associated with the martial arts I do happen to think that to claim tradition as a selling point while disregarding it when it doesn't suit ya is dishonest.

Mark