TigerWoman said:
But they don't. The head can't take the same level of force as the core so it doesn't matter as much if the power's reduced. Training can't overcome the decrease in range anymore than it can the loss of strength. It's still there.
Maximum power at height
- Thread starter FearlessFreep
- Start date
But they don't. The head can't take the same level of force as the core so it doesn't matter as much if the power's reduced. Training can't overcome the decrease in range anymore than it can the loss of strength. It's still there.
Last Fearner
2nd Black Belt
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Hi everyone!
This is only my second post here at MT, and my first one on the Taekwondo forum. I am new to this group, and I'm so happy to see that everyone shows each other the respect by disagreeing without insults or name calling. I find this very refreshing compared to other internet groups.
Anyhow, I'd like to share my thoughts on the original question posted here.
Originally Posted by FearlessFreep
"I was working on my standing bag this morning and I realized I was getting a lot more power out of my spinning side kick then I had thought ...One thing I noticed is that I seem to get more power in a straight shot to the mid section then in a higher kick....
...anyone have thoughts?
Is this true with other kicks? Are there biomechanical realities that impinge themself upon the power of certain kicks at certain heights or..."
:asian: I agree with much of what has been contributed already. The angle of impact on the target has an effect, just as if a board was turned at an angle to your kick when breaking might cause the kick to deflect its power. A vertical bag is going to display the physical reaction to a kick differently if the linear strike is not exactly perpendicular to the surface. The other factor brought up is true that the center mass of the bag will cause a more abrupt displacement of the bag.
Aside from the issues mentioned about how a human body (head or torso) reacts to impact (all very good valid points, by the way), I am going to stick with the question of maximum power and biomechanics at each target level. Considering the angle of impact, imagine if you could turn the striking surface to be perpendicular to the line of your kick and measure the impact (like stomping on a bathroom scale). Would you have less power at higher kicks. My thoughts are yes. Can you increase that power? Yes, but as it has been said here, increasing your ability to strike with more force in higher kicks tends to proportionately increase the power of a mid level kick, and a low level kick.
My experience with this exercise is demonstrated by the following. When I practice breaking boards, I will place one board between cement blocks on the ground (I usually use re-breakable boards in practice to save money). I stomp through the board. Then I place the board in my board holder (a wooden framework I built to hold mulitple boards at each level). I find that beginner students who stomp through two or three boards on the ground on their first attempt often have trouble breaking one board at mid level.
Once they increase their flexibility, strengthen their muscles, and learn the balance and biomechanics of the kick, they can break one or two boards at mid level, three boards at knee level, and four boards stomping. However, they will be lucky if they can break one board at face level. In time, two or three boards at face level is not so much a challenge, but proportionately they can then break four at mid level, five at knee level, and six by stomping on the ground (wooden pine in this case). I find it almost as easy now to break six at mid level as I do stomping - but that's just me - lol)
The effect of fighting against gravity, the restrictions on the muscles, and alignment of the hips are all part of the reason, as others here have suggested. Another reason is that the "Applied Force" at impact, or "snap" of a kick is only part of the total destructive force. The object struck automatically returns a "Reaction Force" which fights against the impact of the Applied Force (Sir Isaac Newton's law of Reaction). The board breaking skills called "Speed breaks" can only overcome some of this loss of power at impact.
If that Reaction force is allowed to dissapate, then the maximum Striking Force is reduced. However, if the alignment of the hips, and the support of the rear leg are optimal (which I keep bent in all kicks except the side kick where the locking of the knee reinforces the return of the Reaction Force from the floor), then the maximum Striking Force will be achieved. I have found this to be easier to do at a level closer to the heighth of the solar plexus because of the straight line that can be achieved from the supporting foot's heel, through both legs to the striking heel at the target - basically doing the splits from the ground to the target as you break through the boards.
I'm sure most of you were aware of all this, so I am just sharing my thoughts and attempting to connect here on what we already know. However, if anyone disagrees, then I respect that as well (I'll just scratch you off my Christmas card list) :uhyeah: - just kidding - lol
Respectfully,
Sr. Master Eisenhart
This is only my second post here at MT, and my first one on the Taekwondo forum. I am new to this group, and I'm so happy to see that everyone shows each other the respect by disagreeing without insults or name calling. I find this very refreshing compared to other internet groups.
Anyhow, I'd like to share my thoughts on the original question posted here.
Originally Posted by FearlessFreep
"I was working on my standing bag this morning and I realized I was getting a lot more power out of my spinning side kick then I had thought ...One thing I noticed is that I seem to get more power in a straight shot to the mid section then in a higher kick....
...anyone have thoughts?
Is this true with other kicks? Are there biomechanical realities that impinge themself upon the power of certain kicks at certain heights or..."
:asian: I agree with much of what has been contributed already. The angle of impact on the target has an effect, just as if a board was turned at an angle to your kick when breaking might cause the kick to deflect its power. A vertical bag is going to display the physical reaction to a kick differently if the linear strike is not exactly perpendicular to the surface. The other factor brought up is true that the center mass of the bag will cause a more abrupt displacement of the bag.
Aside from the issues mentioned about how a human body (head or torso) reacts to impact (all very good valid points, by the way), I am going to stick with the question of maximum power and biomechanics at each target level. Considering the angle of impact, imagine if you could turn the striking surface to be perpendicular to the line of your kick and measure the impact (like stomping on a bathroom scale). Would you have less power at higher kicks. My thoughts are yes. Can you increase that power? Yes, but as it has been said here, increasing your ability to strike with more force in higher kicks tends to proportionately increase the power of a mid level kick, and a low level kick.
My experience with this exercise is demonstrated by the following. When I practice breaking boards, I will place one board between cement blocks on the ground (I usually use re-breakable boards in practice to save money). I stomp through the board. Then I place the board in my board holder (a wooden framework I built to hold mulitple boards at each level). I find that beginner students who stomp through two or three boards on the ground on their first attempt often have trouble breaking one board at mid level.
Once they increase their flexibility, strengthen their muscles, and learn the balance and biomechanics of the kick, they can break one or two boards at mid level, three boards at knee level, and four boards stomping. However, they will be lucky if they can break one board at face level. In time, two or three boards at face level is not so much a challenge, but proportionately they can then break four at mid level, five at knee level, and six by stomping on the ground (wooden pine in this case). I find it almost as easy now to break six at mid level as I do stomping - but that's just me - lol)
The effect of fighting against gravity, the restrictions on the muscles, and alignment of the hips are all part of the reason, as others here have suggested. Another reason is that the "Applied Force" at impact, or "snap" of a kick is only part of the total destructive force. The object struck automatically returns a "Reaction Force" which fights against the impact of the Applied Force (Sir Isaac Newton's law of Reaction). The board breaking skills called "Speed breaks" can only overcome some of this loss of power at impact.
If that Reaction force is allowed to dissapate, then the maximum Striking Force is reduced. However, if the alignment of the hips, and the support of the rear leg are optimal (which I keep bent in all kicks except the side kick where the locking of the knee reinforces the return of the Reaction Force from the floor), then the maximum Striking Force will be achieved. I have found this to be easier to do at a level closer to the heighth of the solar plexus because of the straight line that can be achieved from the supporting foot's heel, through both legs to the striking heel at the target - basically doing the splits from the ground to the target as you break through the boards.
I'm sure most of you were aware of all this, so I am just sharing my thoughts and attempting to connect here on what we already know. However, if anyone disagrees, then I respect that as well (I'll just scratch you off my Christmas card list) :uhyeah: - just kidding - lol
Respectfully,
Sr. Master Eisenhart
OP
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
- Thread Starter
- #23
Thanks for that reply. (and someone needs to edit your post to close of an italic tag : )
The other factor brought up is true that the center mass of the bag will cause a more abrupt displacement of the bag.
THis just brought something to mind. The CG of a standing heavy bag is *very* low, being that it is a padded target anchored at the ground with a big sand or water filled base. What that means is that if I strike low it tends to 'scoot' across the floor, but if I strike high it tends to vibrate back and forth more, without actually moving from it's position. The human body CG is in the hips/core. Don't know how that matters from a practical standpoint, but it did occur to me so I thought I'd throw that out there and ss if it means anything in terms of training or execution.
The other factor brought up is true that the center mass of the bag will cause a more abrupt displacement of the bag.
THis just brought something to mind. The CG of a standing heavy bag is *very* low, being that it is a padded target anchored at the ground with a big sand or water filled base. What that means is that if I strike low it tends to 'scoot' across the floor, but if I strike high it tends to vibrate back and forth more, without actually moving from it's position. The human body CG is in the hips/core. Don't know how that matters from a practical standpoint, but it did occur to me so I thought I'd throw that out there and ss if it means anything in terms of training or execution.
OP
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
- Thread Starter
- #24
One non-connected point I'll throw out there is that flexibility plays a big role in power/speed at height. The more flexible you are, the easier you stretch out, the less your muscles have to fight each other. For example, on a snap kick. Your quads are pulling up on your leg, your hamstrings are resisting in the back. The better your hamstrings can sretch before they resist, the higher you can kick before your quads are pulling against the resistance of your hamstrings, therefore the faster you can kick high, and as a result, the more power you can get into the strike
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FearlessFreep said:
I know I've read somewhere also, that the hamstrings have to worked/conditioned so that they are 85-90% of quad strength. Weak hamstrings, no pulling back power. Squats are good for this. We also do bungee cord -resistance training and that helps alot with the snap. TW
OP
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
- Thread Starter
- #26
True that. I do jump rope and squats with a resistance tube and some other leg exercises to build strength in those muscles, but also have been working a lot on stretching so the same muscles will stretch as well
