Material arts and tricking

[drop bear]

I don’t follow.

The video suggests that the more forwards your jump the better off you are. (You can try it. I am just going to take their word for it) A forward flip launches you forwards.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok so is chi sou martial arts? What does it teach? Kata?

What would people say a skill is?

Kata are also training tools. As is chi sau. Kata specifically (are supposed to) train fighting movement, so are at the other side of that grey divider - more part of MA. Take out the fighting moves, and they are closer to dance.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The video suggests that the more forwards your jump the better off you are. (You can try it. I am just going to take their word for it) A forward flip launches you forwards.

It would do that. Without the roll, that forward momentum can be detrimental, as it’s more force for your legs to oppose upon landing.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ballerinas are both flexible and extremely fit. I not worry in the slightest that I'm going to get beat up by a ballerina.

I dated an ex-ballerina who was studying Shaolin Long Fist...so you might get beat up by a ballerina

Actually watching a trained ballerina do a long fist form, as compared to watching a trained martial artist do a long fist form.....there is a difference. Both can produce powerful strikes and both can be fast, but one of them is a bit more bendy and can actually be defined as beauty in motion...I will leave it to you to figure out which one that is....

 

[drop bear]

It would do that. Without the roll, that forward momentum can be detrimental, as it’s more force for your legs to oppose upon landing.

Yeah but again, according to the video the more forwards you get the higher you can jump from. Because you can deal with forward momentum easier than downward.

 

[drop bear]

Kata are also training tools. As is chi sau. Kata specifically (are supposed to) train fighting movement, so are at the other side of that grey divider - more part of MA. Take out the fighting moves, and they are closer to dance.

Kata doesn't train movement any closer to fighting than tricking. Except you might actually see tricking movement in a fight. Where you never see kata.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah but again, according to the video the more forwards you get the higher you can jump from. Because you can deal with forward momentum easier than downward.

If you don’t roll, I can’t see any advantage to that added speed and momentum. Remember that it is added - the down force of the plain jump is still there in both cases. No roll means you either face-plant, run it out (maybe possible), or oppose that forward force on landing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Kata doesn't train movement any closer to fighting than tricking. Except you might actually see tricking movement in a fight. Where you never see kata.

Every kata I’ve seen (obviously not all in existence) includes weight transitions used in sparring and/or grappling, punches and/or grappling movements, kicks, etc. Which part of that doesn’t exist in fighting?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I dated an ex-ballerina who was studying Shaolin Long Fist...so you might get beat up by a ballerina

Well, no, I'be be getting beaten up by a martial artist.

 

[drop bear]

Every kata I’ve seen (obviously not all in existence) includes weight transitions used in sparring and/or grappling, punches and/or grappling movements, kicks, etc. Which part of that doesn’t exist in fighting?

The dropping in to deep stance punching from the hip stuff.

You transition your weight with kettle bells as well. Which are not martial arts.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The dropping in to deep stance punching from the hip stuff.

This is one of the best counters to deal with "double leg" or "bear hug".

- Your opponent moves in for "double leg", or "bear hug" (while his head is up).
- You drop into a low horse stance, use both of your hands to push his forehead back, and apply pressure on his neck.

 

[drop bear]

This is one of the best counters to deal with "double leg" or "bear hug".

- Your opponent moves in for "double leg", or "bear hug" (while his head is up).
- You drop into a low horse stance, use both of your hands to push his forehead back, and apply pressure on his neck.

I don't have video at the moment. Look up a breakdancing move called the duck dive.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The dropping in to deep stance punching from the hip stuff.

You transition your weight with kettle bells as well. Which are not martial arts.

The kettlebell transitions aren’t the same ones as used in fighting, while many of the transitions in kata mimic (often exaggerated) those used in application. And sometimes the deep stances do happen in fighting. I agree they are far over-represented in kata, and I think that’s because kata is part training drill and part exercise. I didn’t claim all movement in kata was similar to something used in fighting.

My point was that your post implied that non of the movement in kata was similar to fighting - in fact, that tricking movement was closer.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well, no, I'be be getting beaten up by a martial artist.

Just admit it. you would have been beaten up by a ballerina

 

[drop bear]

The kettlebell transitions aren’t the same ones as used in fighting, while many of the transitions in kata mimic (often exaggerated) those used in application. And sometimes the deep stances do happen in fighting. I agree they are far over-represented in kata, and I think that’s because kata is part training drill and part exercise. I didn’t claim all movement in kata was similar to something used in fighting.

My point was that your post implied that non of the movement in kata was similar to fighting - in fact, that tricking movement was closer.

Tornado kicks have knocked guys out. Horse stance punching has done what again?

 

[Tez3]

Kata doesn't train movement any closer to fighting than tricking

That would be because it doesn't train fighting but self defence. If you don't use the right tools for the job then of course it's a botch.

Horse stance punching has done what again?

In Wado Ryu 'horse stance' ( Kibadachi) is used to train the leg muscles, and it really does. If you don't know what things are for why make up their uses and then state they don't work?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Tornado kicks have knocked guys out. Horse stance punching has done what again?

The horse stance might just be exercise added to the punch. You seem to keep forgetting I didn’t say every move in kata was fighting movement. That, or you’re just trying to find an argument.

 

[drop bear]

That would be because it doesn't train fighting but self defence. If you don't use the right tools for the job then of course it's a botch.




In Wado Ryu 'horse stance' ( Kibadachi) is used to train the leg muscles, and it really does. If you don't know what things are for why make up their uses and then state they don't work?

Lol. If you follow the conversation that is exactly what I am saying kata does.

Except for the self defence bit. That just made no sense. I mean what does kata produce that is specifically applicable to self defence?

 

[drop bear]

The horse stance might just be exercise added to the punch. You seem to keep forgetting I didn’t say every move in kata was fighting movement. That, or you’re just trying to find an argument.

I don't have to try when you are not being consistent in your reasoning.

Roman get ups with the kettle bell might be exercise added to your punch. But roman get ups are not used in fighting. It is changed to be aplicable. Like horse stance punching.

You have drawn a romantic line in the sand because you perceive kata a martial arts and exercise as non martial arts.

But perception is not reality.

The most amazing thing about this discussion is that although you will stubbornly argue kata as aplication over tricking. I will find more direct links from tricking to fighting.

And you will not be able to proccess that in an intelectual way.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't have to try when you are not being consistent in your reasoning.

Roman get ups with the kettle bell might be exercise added to your punch. But roman get ups are not used in fighting. It is changed to be aplicable. Like horse stance punching.

You have drawn a romantic line in the sand because you perceive kata a martial arts and exercise as non martial arts.

But perception is not reality.

The most amazing thing about this discussion is that although you will stubbornly argue kata as aplication over tricking. I will find more direct links from tricking to fighting.

And you will not be able to proccess that in an intelectual way.

You want this to be an argument - I started by saying the distinction was useful but not terribly important. Not sure why you've decided to make it a major deal - you're back in one of your mood swings where you have a need to "beat" me in some discussion.

Nothing romantic about the distinction, nor the stark line you claim I've drawn. I've actually said more than once that it's a grey distinction. It's a bit like drawing a distinction between gymnastics and dance, in some cases.

And you're still stuck on a single item. Ignoring, again, that I never said every part of a kata is movement used in fighting. Keep up, would you?