Material arts and tricking

[Brian King]

LOL Master Ken and tricking

 

[JowGaWolf]

My teacher told me that I had to do forward flip. Why the forward flip can reduce the shocking during landing, I still don't have scientific proof for it.

Forward flip or forward roll?

 

[drop bear]

Ballerinas are both flexible and extremely fit. I not worry in the slightest that I'm going to get beat up by a ballerina.

There is a reason football players do ballet.

Has to do with athleticism.

I mean how many times have we heard the argument that the reason a pro MMA fighter can beat a TMAer is because he is more athletic. Yet where do we prioritize this sort of training?

Apparently this game changing ability isn't even martial arts.

It is amazing what we can convince ourselves of isn't it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Unless you rate athleticism as a martial skill.

That makes it something that can contribute to MA ability, but doesn’t really make it part of MA - unless we also include kettlebell, jogging, push-ups, and box jumps as MA skills. I’d willingly include those in a list of potentially useful training tools, but wouldn’t classify them as part of MA, per se.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Forward flip or forward roll?

Forward flip in the air as the 1st guy did in this clip. The forward roll is like the break fall. That's easy to understand. But why forward flip can reduce the landing shocking?

 

[drop bear]

That makes it something that can contribute to MA ability, but doesn’t really make it part of MA - unless we also include kettlebell, jogging, push-ups, and box jumps as MA skills. I’d willingly include those in a list of potentially useful training tools, but wouldn’t classify them as part of MA, per se.

That's fine but then you can't use athleticism as a reason someone may be a better martial artist.

I mean if you are purely looking at martial arts in terms of efficiency. (And for self defence you would want to be leaning in that direction.) You really need to rate your training in terms of what wins fights.

Running, jogging, push ups, kettle bells win fights.

So if athleticism is a major factor in winning. And you are not engaging in acquiring athleticism. You are not training martial arts.

If people are banging on about the individual not the style and the style is not training the individual.

Then there is your disconnect.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But why forward flip can reduce the landing shocking?

Does it really reduce the landing shock? Have you ever tried it or asked someone who does forward flips?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Does it really reduce the landing shock? Have you ever tried it or asked someone who does forward flips?

I could jump off from the roof top. But I was afraid to add flip into it. My high jump gave me a big trouble once. One time I got on the ski lift, one of my ski fell down. It was about 15 feet high. I jumped down but my hard ski boots gave me big trouble. My left leg nerve got damaged. It took me 3 years to recover. Not sure if flip could prevent that problem from happening.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's fine but then you can't use athleticism as a reason someone may be a better martial artist.

I mean if you are purely looking at martial arts in terms of efficiency. (And for self defence you would want to be leaning in that direction.) You really need to rate your training in terms of what wins fights.

Running, jogging, push ups, kettle bells win fights.

So if athleticism is a major factor in winning. And you are not engaging in acquiring athleticism. You are not training martial arts.

If people are banging on about the individual not the style and the style is not training the individual.

Then there is your disconnect.

No disconnect. Training athleticism improves the ability to use the skills that are MA. Strength is not MA, but it makes MA more effective. Ditto for other general traits like agility, speed, etc. Mind you, there's no stark line between them. Much of what I do when teaching is designed to help general mobility and agility. That's inherent to the overall system, as is a strength component (which the MA training teaches them to use properly). But Turkish get-ups aren't MA, any more than squats (or whatever leg strength exercise they use) is Olympic long jumping.

I think it's a useful to draw a distinction between what is "martial arts" and what is "training for martial arts", but probably only from an intellectual standpoint and as a matter of understanding. In practice, strength training should come into MA training, as should cardio training, etc. And maybe, from time to time, something that resembles tricking.

 

[drop bear]

No disconnect. Training athleticism improves the ability to use the skills that are MA. Strength is not MA, but it makes MA more effective. Ditto for other general traits like agility, speed, etc. Mind you, there's no stark line between them. Much of what I do when teaching is designed to help general mobility and agility. That's inherent to the overall system, as is a strength component (which the MA training teaches them to use properly). But Turkish get-ups aren't MA, any more than squats (or whatever leg strength exercise they use) is Olympic long jumping.

I think it's a useful to draw a distinction between what is "martial arts" and what is "training for martial arts", but probably only from an intellectual standpoint and as a matter of understanding. In practice, strength training should come into MA training, as should cardio training, etc. And maybe, from time to time, something that resembles tricking.

I think the distinction cripples you.I get the impression that people think strong athletic people with a fighting spirit are created through magic.It is the individual not the system.

I mean if you want to train martial arts for its cultural benifit then fine. Turkish get ups art not martial arts. If you are looking to crack skulls then they definateley are.

 

[drop bear]

Does it really reduce the landing shock? Have you ever tried it or asked someone who does forward flips?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the distinction cripples you.I get the impression that people think strong athletic people with a fighting spirit are created through magic.

I've never gotten that impression from anyone.

I mean if you want to train martial arts for its cultural benifit then fine. Turkish get ups art not martial arts. If you are looking to crack skulls then they definateley are.

Again, if we go back to the definition of "martial arts":

• martial (1st definition at martial | Definition of martial in English by Oxford Dictionaries): "Relating to fighting or war."
• art: (4th definition at art | Definition of art in English by Oxford Dictionaries): "A skill at doing a specified thing, typically one acquired through practice."

That means martial arts is about the skills acquired through practice that are related to fighting. A Turkish get-up is distantly related to fighting - skill at it is not, really. The result of it (the strength) is what's related. I can use other methods to develop that skill, and I'm not changing my MA approach - just a shift in my training. I don't see anything in that distinction that cripples anyone. It's when people buy into the marketing that strength and size are irrelevant in MA (they aren't and never have been) that they cripple themselves.

Mind you, people don't all have the same kinds of thought processes - you and I tend to approach things very differently in our minds. A distinction that is intellectually useful to me may be so much rubbish in your approach to the topic.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If that's what KFW's instructor meant, there's some good evidence for it. But it sounded like he meant doing a flip in the jump, which I can't see being helpful. In fact, it should accelerate the legs even more.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's the forward roll. I was referring to doing a forward flip in the air then land.

 

[drop bear]

I've never gotten that impression from anyone.


Again, if we go back to the definition of "martial arts":

• martial (1st definition at martial | Definition of martial in English by Oxford Dictionaries): "Relating to fighting or war."
• art: (4th definition at art | Definition of art in English by Oxford Dictionaries): "A skill at doing a specified thing, typically one acquired through practice."

That means martial arts is about the skills acquired through practice that are related to fighting. A Turkish get-up is distantly related to fighting - skill at it is not, really. The result of it (the strength) is what's related. I can use other methods to develop that skill, and I'm not changing my MA approach - just a shift in my training. I don't see anything in that distinction that cripples anyone. It's when people buy into the marketing that strength and size are irrelevant in MA (they aren't and never have been) that they cripple themselves.

Mind you, people don't all have the same kinds of thought processes - you and I tend to approach things very differently in our minds. A distinction that is intellectually useful to me may be so much rubbish in your approach to the topic.

Strength is a skill.

 

[drop bear]

If that's what KFW's instructor meant, there's some good evidence for it. But it sounded like he meant doing a flip in the jump, which I can't see being helpful. In fact, it should accelerate the legs even more.

Yeah. But to do the flip you need that forward jump maybe?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Strength is a skill.

At the technical neurological level, that’s true. It’s not really what most folks mean they speak of skills. I’d argue it’s a component of many skills, rather than a skill in and of itself. Not really a distinction worth an argument.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah. But to do the flip you need that forward jump maybe?

I don’t follow.

 

[drop bear]

At the technical neurological level, that’s true. It’s not really what most folks mean they speak of skills. I’d argue it’s a component of many skills, rather than a skill in and of itself. Not really a distinction worth an argument.

Ok so is chi sou martial arts? What does it teach? Kata?

What would people say a skill is?

 

[drop bear]

At the technical neurological level, that’s true. It’s not really what most folks mean they speak of skills. I’d argue it’s a component of many skills, rather than a skill in and of itself. Not really a distinction worth an argument.

Ok so is chi sou martial arts? What does it teach? Kata?

What would people say a skill is?