Master

[Buka]

I'm not qualified to determine when anyone has mastered a martial art. But the term "Master" seems to connote a certain something. Gravitas, knowledge and talent maybe, I don't know, but definitely respect. We'd probably all agree on the respect part.

I've addressed a lot of folks by "Master". Everyone addressed them that way. Wally Jay we addressed as "Professor" but that was pretty much the same thing, at least to us. (Maybe everyone calling them Master made it so, I don't know.) But Joe Lewis, Bill Wallace and Rickson Gracie had us address them by their first names. Sometimes we'd call them Sensei out of Martial habit, and a lot of times we'd answer a question with "sir", but that was pretty much out of habit, too. But they were definitely Masters.

Ray Leonard worked out at Billy Blanks' school for several years, but everyone called him Ray. We'd address him as Champ in front of students, but that was out of respect. He was a Master, too, and in a very difficult and unforgiving art.

If you were to walk into our dojo and introduce yourself as Master, or if someone else introduced you as Master, we would address you that way. Regardless of your age or resume. It didn't much matter to us what you wanted to be called, we would always respect it.

My black belts that go on to teach get to choose what their title is. Most are Sensei, but one prefers Shihan and that's how his students address him. They (the instructors) do not have the option to have their students address them by first name. I suppose one could choose Master, but there would be too much laughing. I get to be called "Coach" because that's what I've earned and that's what I choose.

When us old guys are out and meet a young Master we usually share a wink and a nod later, and whisper to each other, "Young Master much faster!" But that's usually in harmless fun. Usually.

 

[Grasshopper22]

Well in the style of Ju-Jitsu that I train in, the belt order goes thusly: White, Yellow, Orange, Green, Blue, Purple, Brown, Black, 2nd Dan, 3rd Dan and all the way up to 10th Dan (which my Sensei is). It took my sensei (I think) 55 years to earn his 10th Dan and he even has a place in the martial arts hall of fame. I would consider him a master as he has made a positive impact on the martial arts community, reached 10th Dan and trained in the art for over 50 years. I don't think anyone can be considered a master if they have been training for less than 40 years. To me, 'master' means 'the highest' (rank) so I don't tink anyone can be considered a master if they haven't earned at least their 8th Dan.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Alex, I can't let you post such crap with refuting it. Ueshiba did not 'invent' aikido and it did originate from a predeveloped art. It has absolutely nothing to do with Bagua. I don't know where you get these ideas. Look up any reference. Ueshiba was a fully trained exponent of Daito Ryu. He was taught by Takeda Sokaku and received his teaching certificate from him. He modified this style to develop Aikido. The differences in Aikido taught are because different students left to teach at various times and taught the style they had learned. The earlier styles are much harder than those that evolved after the war.

One of my kendo students used to do bagua, wushu, tai chi, and aikido, and she made a similar statement. When I told her what you said above, and that it is very well documented, she made the comment that 'well, everything ultimately comes from China and the Japanese don't give credit' which I don't buy into. But it wasn't a lengthy discussion; I said that she could believe that if she wanted to, and that I"m sure your sifu fed you that line, but historical documentation does not bear that out.

 

[clfsean]

Alex, there is something about you posts I just can't put my finger on. I'm sure it will come to me if I keep reading.

I think he could be talking about the unsubstantiated rumors that Ueshiba came into contact with some bagua during his brief time in China.

 

[K-man]

One of my kendo students used to do bagua, wushu, tai chi, and aikido, and she made a similar statement. When I told her what you said above, and that it is very well documented, she made the comment that 'well, everything ultimately comes from China and the Japanese don't give credit' which I don't buy into. But it wasn't a lengthy discussion; I said that she could believe that if she wanted to, and that I"m sure your sifu fed you that line, but historical documentation does not bear that out.

One of the sites I get regular info from is the Aikido Journal edited by Stanley Pranin.

Here is an article on the relationship between Morihie Ueshiba and Sokaku Takeda writen by Stanley Pranin in the Aiki News #94 from 1993. I have just included the summary in quotes, link for whole article below.

In conclusion, I would like to mention some of the positive consequences of the connection between these two highly-regarded men twentieth-century budo men. First, aikido's technical debt to Daito-ryu is immense. It is difficult to find a movement in aikido which does not originate in Takeda's jujutsu form. On the other hand, the survival, dissemination and future prospects of Daito-ryu as a traditional Japanese martial art have been virtually guaranteed by the tremendous international success of modern aikido. In fact, I have often heard practitioners of Daito-ryu refer loosely to their art as aikido! In any event, viewed historically, the two martial arts are irrevocably linked and will remain so despite the misunderstandings, biases, and recriminations that have been perpetuated to this day. In time, as our understanding of past historical events grows, I believe it will be possible to regard the relationship between aikido and Daito-ryu jujutsu with a more objective eye and that the mutual debt of these arts will be more easily perceived

.

The whole article is found; http://omlc.ogi.edu/aikido/talk/osensei/bio/mori1.html

I have never seen anything to suggest that Ueshiba drew on Bagua or any other style for his Aikido. He modified his teaching over the years but it was his spirituality that influenced it most in his latter years.

As for your student claiming ultimately everything came from China, she may be right, but Daito Ryu claims to go back 900 years in Japan and even if you just go back to the origins of jujutsu in the 1500s, it was the Samuri who developed that art and it was significantly different to the Chinese arts of the same period. Daito Ryu is much closer to jujutsu than any CMA. :asian:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sorry, but everything most certainly does not ultimately come from China.

 

[K-man]

Sorry, but everything most certainly does not ultimately come from China.

Hey, don't blame me! Tell your student. I have no way of knowing where anything in Asia came from a thousand years ago! I have no dog in the fight. All I know is that nowadays, when I go to the supermarket, just about everything comes from China!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hey, don't blame me! Tell your student. I have no way of knowing where anything in Asia came from a thousand years ago! I have no dog in the fight. All I know is that nowadays, when I go to the supermarket, just about everything comes from China!

Sorry about that. Too late to edit; I hit the post button early and then got called away from my desk. The rest was supposed to read...

"unless you're at Walmart."

 

[pgsmith]

I have never seen anything to suggest that Ueshiba drew on Bagua or any other style for his Aikido. He modified his teaching over the years but it was his spirituality that influenced it most in his latter years.

As for your student claiming ultimately everything came from China, she may be right, but Daito Ryu claims to go back 900 years in Japan and even if you just go back to the origins of jujutsu in the 1500s, it was the Samuri who developed that art and it was significantly different to the Chinese arts of the same period. Daito Ryu is much closer to jujutsu than any CMA.

Ellis Amdur wrote a very interesting book called Hidden in Plain Sight: Tracing the Roots of Ueshiba Morihei's Power which, in part, addresses this very subject. Here's the blurb from the back cover ...

... In this volume, Amdur has radically reworked his iconoclastic essays first published on the website of Aikido Journal. Here, he attempts to establish the existence of something all but lost in Japanese martial arts, a sophisticated type of training, encompassing mental imagery, breath-work, and a variety of physical techniques that offered the practitioner the potential to develop skills sometimes viewed as nearly superhuman. Commonly referred to as "internal training," and usually believed to be the provenance of Chinese martial arts, Amdur asserts that not only was it once common among many Japanese martial traditions, but elements of such training still remain, passed down in a few martial arts, literally "hidden in plain sight." As always, Amdur reminds us that this is a human endeavor and he provides vivid, even heartbreaking portrayals of some of the great practitioners of these skills, men who devoted their lives to an obsessive pursuit of power.

The book is a very interesting and thought-provoking read, and should be in the library of anyone interested in Aikido or Daito ryu, in my opinion.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Master. I swear lately, this poor word seems to be taking alot of abuse...lol. Seems like its very common as of late. So since it seems to be a popular word, I thought I'd ask the opinions of everyone here.

What defines a Master?

When you have learned, and can teach the techniques, tactics, strategies and principles of your system with a high level of proficiency. When one does not feel the need to address themselves as a master, but rather others feel the need to address him/her as such. While there can never be a specific age, one should be old enough to have gained maturity and experience in life and not just the art itself.

 

[ks - learning to fly]

What defines 'master' ...by dictionary definition - a person eminently (high in station, rank, or repute) skilled in something, as an occupation, art, or science...I think this helps my definition..

 

[WC_lun]

My general rule of thumb is any man who asks others to call him master or grandmaster is niether. A man who has the respect of his peers, the love of his students, teaches for the love of passing on the knowledge, and a compassion for everyone no matter thier title, comes much closer to deserving such an illustrious title of master.

In my opinion, the best title a martial artist can ever achieve is teacher. Anything other than that doesn't really mean much and unfortunately in many cases, is a direct reflection of a person's ego rather than any martial skill.

 

[puunui]

Ellis Amdur wrote a very interesting book called Hidden in Plain Sight: Tracing the Roots of Ueshiba Morihei's Power which, in part, addresses this very subject. Here's the blurb from the back cover ...The book is a very interesting and thought-provoking read, and should be in the library of anyone interested in Aikido or Daito ryu, in my opinion.

Ok, so on your recommendation, I just bought that book online, as well as dueling with osensei and old school. Any other books by ellis amdur that are out there? I might as well get them all.

 

[K-man]

Ellis Amdur wrote a very interesting book called Hidden in Plain Sight: Tracing the Roots of Ueshiba Morihei's Power which, in part, addresses this very subject. Here's the blurb from the back cover ...

Here, he attempts to establish the existence of something all but lost in Japanese martial arts, a sophisticated type of training, encompassing mental imagery, breath-work, and a variety of physical techniques that offered the practitioner the potential to develop skills sometimes viewed as nearly superhuman. Commonly referred to as "internal training," and usually believed to be the provenance of Chinese martial arts, Amdur asserts that not only was it once common among many Japanese martial traditions, but elements of such training still remain, passed down in a few martial arts, literally "hidden in plain sight."

The book is a very interesting and thought-provoking read, and should be in the library of anyone interested in Aikido or Daito ryu, in my opinion.

Paul! thank you for the post. I have read several accounts of this same internal energy in some of the early karateka and also among some of the elite swordsmen of Japan. I was interested in Ellis' assertion that elements of the training remain. They are certainly few and far between although I have had the good fortune to experience that skill first hand.

I did a google search and there are some interesting reviews available for anyone interested. :asian: