Master? Earned / Given / ???

[Rich Parsons]

In a previous thread there were some discussions on the usage of the title or rank of Master.

Arnisador mentioned it should come from the students out of respect for their instructor.

Some systems have the title, some have it as an actual rank of instructor that may or may not be associated with rank.



So, is it acceptable for a person to allow someone to call him/her Master or should they go out of their way to correct the student? I mean the student was/is only trying to show respect.

Curious about the discussion.
:asian:

 

[SenseiBear]

In our style, the rank of Master is 5th degree black and above - I guess each rank has a title, and from 5th on they each have Master in the title - I don't know of anyone who wishes to be called anything more than Sensei or Sifu (a non-traditional style, we use Japanese, Chinese and Korean terminology at times, though usually stick to english)

If a student were to address a Blackbelt of less than 5th degree as Master so and so, they would likely be told politely (by the one so addressed) to call them Sensei... Actually, that would be the likely response even if the instructor in question was a Master.

 

[Jay Bell]

So, is it acceptable for a person to allow someone to call him/her Master or should they go out of their way to correct the student? I mean the student was/is only trying to show respect.

In the core sense, the student should be corrected. While a kind thought, the usage is incorrect. A student may feel that their teacher is a master, but until s/he is made so by their instructor, it is just plain incorrect.

If anyone caught the "Masters of the Martial Arts" laugh fest on TV a few years ago, you'll understand why. The question of, "How many Masters can you fit on a stage" was certainly answered.

That was the program that Wesley Snipes was promoted by his "peers" to 5th Dan...of no martial art. He seemed mighty proud of that. I'm sure I would to....if I was also a self-proclaimed master of Capoeira.

 

[Makalakumu]

There are too many "masters" in the martial arts today. I think it reduces the amount of respect the arts get in general.

 

[Jay Bell]

There are too many "masters" in the martial arts today. I think it reduces the amount of respect the arts get in general.

Very true. The term Master has lost near all it's worth. It's terrible when a legitimate master of a legitimate school is looked at as "everyone else" because of people's arrogance and self-glorification.

 

[Kempo Guy]

I posted this in another thread but here it is again

"Everyone is looking for a master or guru in the west, but the word master is so overused today as to be meaningless, much like having a black belt today is meaningless. A genuine master is almost impossible to find because you won't quickly recognize him. He is much more than a teacher. Genuine teachers strive to be masters but only one in a hundred thousand finish the journey. There are only a handful of true masters on the whole planet. Funny how they all end up in the San Francisco yellow pages. (laughing)
I tell people all the time this truth. It is not amendable or conditional. "Anyone who calls himself a master or allows his students to refer to him as 'master' in his presence, isn't a master." Occasionally he may be a well-meaning teacher who misunderstands the definition of the word, but most of the time he is an ego driven narcissist seeking adoration. He will have very little to teach because there is so little room in his heart for his students. Instead of looking for a master, just look for a good teacher with a sense of humor, especially if he's driving a crummy old car. (Laughing, while motioning towards his old Toyota.) My old friend and sensei, Matsuhiro Namishiro used to say "There must be lots of smiles along the way or the journey is not worth it." He was correct you know."
- Takamura Yukiyoshi (1928 - 2000)
(an excerpt from an interview conducted in 1988. You can find the whole interview at Aikidojournal.com as well as Shinyokai.com)

 

[progressivetactics]

good discussion.
in korean karate, a master title is awarded at 4th degree. Does this make him less of a master because he/she is not 5th degree (vs japanese style)? Because someone accepts a title, does that ultimately mean they are not deserving of a title?

I agree that most prefer to be sensei (jap), or plan mr.mrs in korean, of sifu, etc. But to have a title of master and have students to show respect by using it doesnt make them less of a student or instructor. It is a big generalization to think that most masters in the martial arts are ego driven. I would have trouble naming a small fraction of the ones i know...

We are in a very unique position in the world today with titles and orgizations. Remember when many of the 2nd and 3rd degree black belts came to america in the 50's and 60's, they opened schools as masters and/or 5th-6th degree, and even higher, simply because they started their own system, or maybe because plane travel over the ocean wasn't that safe...im not sure.

I agree if you open the yellow pages, you see alot of extra titles and attention grabbers, but isnt that mostly marketing, not ego. Is it ego driven to think we know what there real feelings or intensions are? I'm not sure. There is a problem with many people starting to believe their own press and make untrue claims. I agree, but shouldn't our goal and purpose as instructors, students, and just people in general to try to improve our lives and make us better internally?

sorry for the rambling.. it is a good topic..and many different areas of interest can take this many different ways.

bb

 

[Zepp]

I've always felt that the title Master carries more weight as an honorary title, especially when it's acknowledged as such. Being given a title automatically after achieving a certain rank just seems to me as though it diminshes the prestige of it.

I don't ever refer to someone as "master" when addressing them in the first person. That just sounds and feels wrong.

 

[Jay Bell]

in korean karate, a master title is awarded at 4th degree. Does this make him less of a master because he/she is not 5th degree (vs japanese style)? Because someone accepts a title, does that ultimately mean they are not deserving of a title?

Well...that's sort of a case by case situation. Was Wesley Snipes worthy of the title of Master? Absolutely not. What of all of the other self-proclaimed puppet artists that were also on the program? Absolutely not.

I agree if you open the yellow pages, you see alot of extra titles and attention grabbers, but isnt that mostly marketing, not ego.

Marketing as far as yellow pages...yeah, I'll go with that. However....is it lying or has the title of Master really become that sad to where 50 listings per page have really been given such a title?

Something else to note about titles...there is a pretty large misconception of "Master" in Japanese arts. Shihan does not denote master. Shihan denotes Master (senior) Instructor. But look at how loosely mis-used Japanese titles are out there.

The WCMAA Website

Anyway...on the site there are 6 "Soke" (If judging by the correct usage of the word, this would entail that all six of these gentlemen were handed down a lineage of traditional Japanese martial arts). Five of them are labeled "Shihan".

My arguement is not of someone who trains for years on end and his granted a title from his merrits. It's from people that throw a title on their name to sound more important or to attract students....or to just flat out feed their ego.

 

[Touch Of Death]

An interesting side note. The computer industry is probably going to be forced to eliminate the term Master from its lingo because the NAACP is raising a stink. Perhaps we should follow suit. And now lets take on the auto industry with all them Master cylanders and what not. My instructor always pushes us to master a technique or concept, not to be a master. I'll quit babbling now.
Sean

 

[arnisador]

I also think it holds more meaning if it is given as an honour rather than as part and parcel of a promotion in rank.

The point about "master teacher" is well taken. It's similar in FMA, where Punong Guro is sometimes (not always) taken as master but has more of a "master teacher" feel to it.

Some organizations have formalized it. That's their right, but I don't like it. It devalues the meaning of it.

As to "master" and "slave" drives:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031126/od_nm/master_dc_1

 

[Cruentus]

I've had people call me "Master Paul." I've had people call me all kinds of titles that I haven't been given by a senior instructor.

When I teach, I am not concerned with rank or title, so when anyone calls me anything outside of "Paul" it makes me a bit uncomfortable, unless its a kid who calls me "Mr. Janulis." So I correct them not because I don't have the "right" to stake claims to any title I want; if I wanted to really market myself I could obtain and use any title I want...people do this all the time. I correct them because by doing so it makes a statement about who I am. It says that although I am the teacher, I treat others with equal respect, even if they are a student. It says that your rank or title is not what concerns me, its what you know and have to offer; and I don't want you to respect me because I have been in the martial arts for 19 years, or because I have obtained a title of some sort, I want to earn your respect through my skill, knowledge, and behavior.

That is why I correct them, and this is what is right for me.

Now others may go by the title that was given to them by their instructor. This is the most proper way to go. This isn't the only way, however.

Now, if it is a title that is very specific like Soke or Shihan or Datu, then this should only be given by an instructor. I had a new student who read only a little about Modern Arnis call refer to me by e-mail as "Datu Paul" and Jaye Spiro as "Datu Jaye," because he thought this was how you addressed seniors in the art. I nicely told him that this was not proper because Remy Presas only gave the Datu title to 6 people, and that although by definition I may be a "datu" or "cheiftan" of my own little "tribe" or class in Rochester, it is still not proper and could lead to much confusion.

However, a title that is very generic, like Guro, Sensei, or even Master or Grandmaster is much different in my opinion. If All my students and peers see me as "master" because they believe I have mastered something, then I guess that makes me a master. I don't think that this neccisarily has to be given by another instructor. I'll use the example of Grand Master Anciong Bacon, the founder of Balintawak Eskrima. He was never given a rank or title by any of his teachers, and he never gave out rank or titles. However, he is honored as a Grandmaster by his students and contemporaries.

So..its all about perception. Generic titles like master can be used if the students and contemporaries percieve that individual as a master. Other, more specific titles (which may depend on the system) should only be used if formally recieved.