masaaki ryu and the kusari

[skuggvarg]

Oh, and my understanding comes from a much more diverse range of sources than has been intimated or even guessed at, for the record... inside and outside the Bujinkan.

So my claims, which match all other known information, the comments and claims of various Soke and Menkyo holders, people who are ranked specifically in the schools and so on, are the ones that are "outside the norm", and should be questioned? I agree that claims should be questioned, but I disagree that claims that match common understanding should be dismissed, questioned, or be attempted to be discredited because someone doesn't like who is saying it... and I see that a fair bit.

Mr Parker, Im sure you have collected some information from various sources and I applaud you for your persistance in putting so much time into investigating the ryu-ha. However, as has been pointed out many times before, you may voice your educated opinion but to be so rude as to tell others about their school, as if you had some real connection to the masters of that school, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You know very well where the information BigWill shares comes from. You may not agree about what he says but if you question it you have to go higher in the hierarchy and question those masters too (one being the soke of the schools, the other having some 40 years in practise and several Menkyo Kaiden, the last having some 25 years in practise and having a very close connection to the other two masters). Perhaps there was no kusarijutsu in the Gyokko Ryu 200 years ago, who knows. For all we know Everything could have been made up. Even old documents can be faked or why not stolen? It matters Little because now there is Kusarijutsu and we are practising it as part of Gyokko Ryu. Those who want to learn how to just have to seek out those who know it. You can, if you like, keep on arguing about it but it wont change a thing. Regards / Skuggvarg

 

[Jameswhelan]

Chris,

Mr Schweinhart and Mr Wideman are the two most expert people about the Takagi ryu complex of styles outside of Japan. We're very lucky to have them both contributing to this thread.
Here's how this is going to work: when they're speaking, your listening and asking questions politely. Don't presume to correct or lecture them you're not a peer here.

 

[jks9199]

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[Steve]

Chris,

Mr Schweinhart and Mr Wideman are the two most expert people about the Takagi ryu complex of styles outside of Japan. We're very lucky to have them both contributing to this thread.
Here's how this is going to work: when they're speaking, your listening and asking questions politely. Don't presume to correct or lecture them you're not a peer here.

We're all peers here, and when people forget that, things tend to go South pretty fast. As a group, we value respect, courtesy and reasoned debate over appeals to authority, logical fallacies and unsupported allegations. If you think Chris is wrong, just saying, "You're wrong, Chris," isn't going to cut it. You guys are going to need to support your positions. This is a discussion forum.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yes this is a discussion forum and we are all martial peers here Steve. However, when someone practices outside of the current systems from someone who used to train in it how could they possibly be in a position to be the one correcting those who actually are in the system, have links to the teachers and Soke of the system and are experts in the system themselves. Not to mention that they are current and updated to how the system works and is understood today. (this is after all a living system and not a system set in stone) It would be like me going to Royce Gracie or one of his top students and lecturing him on his families history and saying that this, this or this is not in his system of Brazilian Jiujitsu. Even though there are things in Brazilian Jiujitsu that are not taught in his family system. (the system is living afterall and growing technically wise) This is not to say that Chris is not knowledgeable or that he does not express himself well but instead that he is not the authority on the history or traditions of the Bujinkan, Genbukan or Jinenkan. He is instead one of the authorities on his teachers system. Nor is anything meant negative about his teacher because I do not know him or how much he learned or how good he is. They literally may be the best for all I know. I think that the authorities in the X-Kans are those who have directly trained at the feet of Hatsumi Sensei. (ie. longtime students like the Japanese Shihan, Manaka Unsu Senseii, Tanemura Sensei and various western Shihan who have trained a long time and continue to train and learn) Those above are the ones more in position to say with a more definitive answer that this or that is not within a certain ryu-ha. if they broke away they certainly can have that perspective within their own system. (they are then the authority there) Not me, not Chris but instead those that were very close to the source of it all or are close to the source. It is hard and I mean very, very hard to say with certainty that there is nothing in this ryu or that. Why? Because some thing may only have been passed on to certain individuals through time. Some things may only be transmitted to a certain few. Some things are left out of books and videos. Some things may be put into a ryu-ha by the Soke as is his right to do so. One thing I have learned through the years is that the moment you say with definitive conviction that this or that is this way in the X-Kans is the moment that you end up with egg on your face. I have personally been corrected on a few things myself while in the Hombu dojo and outside of it and I am just a minor Bujinkan practitioner because it simply is not the only thing that I do. Still I came in knowing one thing and left with a new knowledge and perspective!!! That's just the way it is!

Having said the above I enjoy reading posts that Chris writes, enjoy his knowledge of the X-Kans as he certainly has put in some work in that department and enjoy that he likes what he does and is trying to improve as a martial practitioner. No ill will here, not even a little bit!

 

[Todd Schweinhart]

Mr. Whelan, thank you for your kind words but I am merely a student training best I can. Let's catch up again sometime!

Mr. Parker, I feel sometimes you comments are a bit strong...and possibly presumptuous...."You might want to do some more reading of what was in various Koryu, then... because, as a rule, it wasn't." Maybe this comment was a misunderstanding on what I was attempting to convey...I was referring to most koryu containing things such as iai, tenugui no tsukaikata (torinawa) etc. It is fact that most koryu contained these and other concepts. I may have also misunderstood your statement but feel as if you think I don't have experience in "koryu". But I will still take your advice and read up a bit more. Any suggestions?

Your statement regarding Manaka of the Jinenkan could better be answered by his current students today but I believe you are incorrect on that. You stated.."Manaka, to use your example, didn't receive Menkyo in Takagi Yoshin Ryu, only Gyokko and Togakure" Manaka himself stated he received Menkyo in Takagi Ryu and others but also achieved Menkyo Kaiden in latter schools you mentioned. I included this statement to merely demonstrate guys who have spent a lot less face time with Hatsumi sensei, especially foreigners, would perhaps know even less than Manaka. I would venture to say having a Menkyo would give some indication of one's depth of knowledge.

You are also incorrect regarding the Mizuta den not having the yurushi. I have seen various documents including a densho from Mizuta himself and the yurushi are listed.

My last comment was regarding the claims of Gyokko Ryu and SFR having additional information within the school. I have an assortment of documents from schools listing very similar names of ryu that are included in the various takamatsu den. These documents contain all these items discussed and not openly taught to Takamatsu den but are more than likely not from the same lineage of what is being passed on today. If someone claims otherwise...ie Gyokko Ryu has fundo, spear etc...then I am interested from research perspective. I have pretty strong thoughts on the historical composition of Gyokko Ryu and other schools however I think it is incorrect for anyone to state so authoritatively what it does and does not contain especially when not a direct student of said ryu.

Additionally I wasn't trying to "break rules" when inviting the discussion to private but thought that was the proper thing to do considering the original poster may not want to discuss it out in the open. I would offer Mr. Parker the same kindness to discuss his comment made here "So my claims, which match all other known information, the comments and claims of various Soke and Menkyo holders". When you say these claims are made by soke and Menkyo holders, do you mean posted online or in an article or these statements were made to you personally? I am merely trying to understand the weight of this statement.

It would be interesting to get everyone in a private room so we could discuss some of the issues and present some findings of our research in a positive atmosphere. We had something like this back in the old E-budo days. We had representation from various branches etc and it was quite nice to discuss what we had all uncovered over the years. Nothing proprietary mind you, but just everyone's research including personal experiences.

Best,

Todd Schweinhart

WWW.YOSHINDOJO.COM

 

[Steve]

I think, Brian, there is a way to disagree that is respectful and informative. Demanding that another poster essentially sit down and shut up has no place here, IMO. its discourteous at best.

I have no way of knowing whether Chris is correct or not. But there is no sharing of information going on. From the outside looking in, it's a lot of posturing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[The Last Legionary]

Here's how this is going to work: when they're speaking, your listening and asking questions politely. Don't presume to correct or lecture them you're not a peer here.

So, when did you get promoted to Admin so you can dictate policy here?

 

[The Last Legionary]

It would be interesting to get everyone in a private room so we could discuss some of the issues and present some findings of our research in a positive atmosphere. We had something like this back in the old E-budo days. We had representation from various branches etc and it was quite nice to discuss what we had all uncovered over the years. Nothing proprietary mind you, but just everyone's research including personal experiences.

You can check with Bob Hubbard, but the software this site runs allows that. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/group.php Might have to be a supporting member to set one up.

 

[ShugyoIkkan]

Chris, the only problem is that you keep making authoritative statements regarding the ryū-ha. If you would just say "hey, I'm just a guy on the outside with an interest, I don't have all the facts" then there would be no problem. You base your statements solely on the erroneous assumption that Hatsumi sensei, the Sōke, has revealed everything to the public. If you would just accept that he hasn't, then it would not be difficult to be humble and realize that some information can only be received by being part of (even a very small part) the chain of transmission.

Now, as for you not being "sold on the credibility" of Kacem... it is like a child not being sold on the credibility of a math professor. Kacem is a deshi since 20+ years of Ishizuka sensei, who has menkyo kaiden in six of the nine ryū (including the aforementioned Gyokko Ryū and Takagi Yōshin Ry&#363, and has a close relationship with the current Sōke. This already says a lot. Add to that what he has shown, according to many independent eye-witness accounts, to back up his claims (of for example weapons in Gyokko Ry&#363 in terms of documents and more, and it's really strange that you keep insisting on that you are right...

 

[Troy Wideman]

Chris,

Mr Schweinhart and Mr Wideman are the two most expert people about the Takagi ryu complex of styles outside of Japan. We're very lucky to have them both contributing to this thread.
Here's how this is going to work: when they're speaking, your listening and asking questions politely. Don't presume to correct or lecture them you're not a peer here.

HI James,

Thank you for the kind words but as Todd stated I am just someone on the path and have a particular interest in Takagi Yoshin Ryu and all its numerous lines (lol).

Hi Chris,
As Todd stated, the yurushi den is in both Mizuta and Ishitani lines. It is just a section that is not very well know within the public forum.
Inrelation to the Hachimaki, there are some techniques but mostly principles of how to use it.

Hi Todd,
Good to see your still lurking around. Hope all is well with you.



Lets not derail this conversation with any personal attacks on anyone, the information is very interesting to say the least. Lets keep up topics like this, it is something that has been lacking of late on all the forums.

Kind Regards,

Troy wideman

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think, Brian, there is a way to disagree that is respectful and informative. Demanding that another poster essentially sit down and shut up has no place here, IMO. its discourteous at best.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Absolutley Steve! Respectful and polite discussion is what this forum is all about!

 

[Hatsie]

Well this has been an informative thread in more ways than one!
Great to see some very knowledgable people posting, namely Troy, Todd, skuggvark, shugyoikkan , Brian, james etc. It seems most threads here are pounced on, flooded by and revolve around the often incorrect assumptions of a few individuals, who as stated have no clue what is in the nine schools, extensively ( except of course what a good google search can reveal) and no way of checking their own assumptions, save tit bits of information scavenged on the Internet like a cyber vulture. ( like has actually been witnessed in this very thread!)



So as a rule of thumb it would appear; skill and knowledge are inversely proportional to post count and martial talk 'rank'
So at least we can learn to be careful what one reads and believes as fact! As it may just be the ramblings of 'some dude' however enthusiastic, banging out post in his bedroom.

 

[jks9199]

Well, since "rank" here on MartialTalk is just for fun, and based solely on post count... It's not a particular good measure of martial arts skill or knowledge, nor is it supposed to be.

The best way to assess any individual's skill or knowledge is to read for yourself, and do some other research. But, I'm reminded of an old saying: The one eyed man is king in the land of the blind. For some reason, over the last few years, most of the Bujinkan practitioners have stopped posting much, at least here on MartialTalk. So people from offshoots, who posess at least a little knowledge have been kind enough to answer questions, accoring to their own statements. Perhaps you all can contribute your knowledge to correct any errors.

 

[Hatsie]

Well, since "rank" here on MartialTalk is just for fun, and based solely on post count... It's not a particular good measure of martial arts skill or knowledge, nor is it supposed to be.

The best way to assess any individual's skill or knowledge is to read for yourself, and do some other research. But, I'm reminded of an old saying: The one eyed man is king in the land of the blind. For some reason, over the last few years, most of the Bujinkan practitioners have stopped posting much, at least here on MartialTalk. So people from offshoots, who posess at least a little knowledge have been kind enough to answer questions, accoring to their own statements. Perhaps you all can contribute your knowledge to correct any errors.

Indeed, and in principle I agree. However, another expression would be ' a little knowledge is a dangerous thing' or at least a somewhat annoying thing anyway, espescially when that little bit of knowledge ( even if its correct!) seems to go to people's heads, and evolves into the disparagement of the highest ranking MASTERS of the arts in question, up to and including the soke!
So unfortunately as we don't live in the picture perfect world as seen in the brochures I would be surprised if anyone were to share the time of day with people like that, let alone share knowledge gifted to and entrusted with by one of the aforementioned masters or student there of.
Your mileage may vary.

 

[Grenadier]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Martialtalk.com is a place for the polite discussion of martial arts. There are many ways to disagree with someone in a manner that isn't rude. You don't have to like the other guy that you're debating, but you are expected to show some courtesy.

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Ronald Shin
MT Assistant Administrator

 

[poryu]

HI Chris

with regards to your comment below on Masaki Ryu and Hatsumi sensei's training in Masaki Ryu

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there are a couple of branches around, though... as well as the one Hatsumi trained in, .

Exactly which is the branch that is still around that Hatsumi sensei trained in. Can you name the branch and the current teacher please.

 

[Troy Wideman]

HI Chris

with regards to your comment below on Masaki Ryu and Hatsumi sensei's training in Masaki Ryu



Exactly which is the branch that is still around that Hatsumi sensei trained in. Can you name the branch and the current teacher please.

HI Paul,

Hope all is well with you. With your extensive research you have done on Hatsummi's training, what is his link to Masaki Ryu. I figured you would be the best person to ask since you are involved in the ryu ha.


Kind Regards,

Troy

 

[skuggvarg]

Oooh, the sound of silence.....

 

[poryu]

HI Paul,

Hope all is well with you. With your extensive research you have done on Hatsummi's training, what is his link to Masaki Ryu. I figured you would be the best person to ask since you are involved in the ryu ha.


Kind Regards,

Troy

Hi Troy.

I never asked. All I know is he studied for a time period (unknown) with Nawa sensei. What he actually studied I have no idea. I do know from what I have seen Hatsumi sensei do with a chain is that he has studied some of the Manrikigusari, to what level or menkyo I have no idea. I couldnt even give you dates that he was a member of the school. I would assume it was pre-Takamatsu so that would make it the 1950's. I do know my current teacher once told me he has never met Hatsumi sensei.

I am still waiting for Chris Parker to answer my question regarding his study of Masaki Ryu because the content of some of his posts lead people to assume he was studied it quite a bit.