Martially orientated Aikido

Taiji Rebel

Black Belt
A few months back I decided to train with a new Chen-style taijiquan class. Whilst there I chatted with the instructor about aikido as it was his main art before turning to taijiquan. Prior to switching to taijiquan he spent 20 or so years in aikido, back then it was the hard-style of the early 1970s and he had trained with many of Ueshiba's direct students. Being based in the UK he was also a part of the dojo run by Sensei Henry Ellis and those guys had a definite martial angle to their training. In his opinion, aikido has lost its way these days. It is no longer taught as an effective martial art, but anyone who has been involved in martial arts or aikido for any amount of time knows this. Does anyone here still practise aikido with a hard martial edge I wonder? Or is anyone familiar with folk like Henry Ellis who took a more serious approach to training aikido?
 
I’ll guess today’s aikido isn’t any lesser than yesterday’s if it’s from any of the legitimate aikido linages. What is the martial and hard style one look for in harmonizing energies? And how’s TJQ more martial than Aikido ?
 
The reference was more orientated toward the physical attributes of dojo members. Techniques and mechanics can be honed and polished of course, but this is true for all martial arts. Our conversation was focused more toward training the body and mind to create strong and balanced martial artists. In conjunction we also spoke about the importance of solid punching and kicking for realistic attacks, plus the benefits of resisting locks and throws rather than allowing yourself to always be thrown, locked and pinned. It's been a fair few years since I last attended a traditional aikido dojo but as with any MA there is no guarantee that traditional equals effective.
 
A few months back I decided to train with a new Chen-style taijiquan class. Whilst there I chatted with the instructor about aikido as it was his main art before turning to taijiquan. Prior to switching to taijiquan he spent 20 or so years in aikido, back then it was the hard-style of the early 1970s and he had trained with many of Ueshiba's direct students. Being based in the UK he was also a part of the dojo run by Sensei Henry Ellis and those guys had a definite martial angle to their training. In his opinion, aikido has lost its way these days. It is no longer taught as an effective martial art, but anyone who has been involved in martial arts or aikido for any amount of time knows this. Does anyone here still practise aikido with a hard martial edge I wonder? Or is anyone familiar with folk like Henry Ellis who took a more serious approach to training aikido?
Depends on what you mean by "hard martial edge". IME, when many people in the art talk about "martially effective aikido", they mean the same techniques, but faster and with frowned eyebrows.


Then you can have styles that have functional body mechanics (e.g. any of the older aikido and daito ryu lines), which are indeed martially effective in a vacuum: if you manage to get into position, the technique will work. But typically they don't train with aliveness, so they struggle setting up the technique. The exception is of course Tomiki/Shodokan aikido, keeping in mind the limitations of their shiai ruleset.

From a technical perspective, the closest thing you have to a martially effective traditional aikido is Yoseikan Budo, which is the result of decades of innovation and the incorporation of aliveness and techniques from other martial arts. What distinguishes YB from other aikido-based syntheses is that the whole system is principles-based and underpinned by riai (roughly translated as coherence).


But then this is just technique. When you look into what Ueshiba (and other Daito ryu luminaries) said and did, he was pretty clear that it's not about technique. It's about body usage. That's why older styles place so much emphasis on seemingly pointless exercises like suwariwaza kokyu ho and morotedori kokyu ho. It's supposed to condition your body to move in a way that makes it hard to stop. Few people train that way, fewer can do anything remotely visible, and even fewer can do it in a live situation. Almost none film themselves.

That said, I've seen some interesting stuff from Yuu Shiori, former Tomiki aikido champion and pro MMA athlete, who can do some body tricks in sparring:




The third one is interesting because one can see that his partner tries to angle off to his back-right, he lets that happen the first time. The second time, the guy tries to angle off but Shiori places his hand on his neck and throws him to his back-left. In that position, he shouldn't be able to block his partner's full bodyweight with just his outstretched arm. He manages to do so because he's not clashing: his arm softly sends the force upwards and to the rear, then down as he steps. That's very high level, the kind of stuff you may see with old Chinese masters doing push hands.

I’ll guess today’s aikido isn’t any lesser than yesterday’s if it’s from any of the legitimate aikido linages.
Aikido has undeniably changed since the 60s. Depending on your point of view, it can be a bad thing. From a technical point of view, there are techniques and training methodologies that have gone almost completely extinct. For a person interested in learning them, today's aikido is certainly lesser than yesterday's. This is compounded by the conservative mentality of most aikido organizations, where innovation is frowned upon: with no room for new ideas and the gradual loss of older ones, the technical richness of aikido is slowly drying out. It may soon be difficult to learn anything beyond a dozen fossilized basic techniques (1 to 5 kyo; irimi nage, shiho nage, tenchi nage, kote gaeshi, kaiten nage, perhaps juji nage, and if you're lucky koshi nage).
 
What makes this “street”? That’s a loooong way round the block to get that wrist lock.
Agreed.
Wrist locks mostly suffer from not intelligently moving through the space to get to the throw.

It doesn't matter what you use a wrist lock for. You still need to move in to it safely.

We have an interesting situation here, where something has been broken and has pieces missing. Since it is broken, it does not work and is not effective. But what we are doing is trying to find ways for the broken item to function anyway.... without restoring the missing pieces or repairing the item.

We have a broken car.... the transmission has been ripped out. It is not effective. But, instead of fixing the car, and replacing the transmission, we are coming up with scenarios where if the car is on a hill, it will roll down the hill.... maybe if the hill is not steep enough, the vibration of the engine will help get it going.... but this leads to solutions like damaging the fly wheel, to unbalance it and cause more vibration, rather that replacing the missing pieces.....

The wrist lock we have been looking at has been broken. Pieces have been removed. So we are now looking at this broken, half technique and are trying to fix it, by finding a situation where the broken, half technique can be useful.

Aikido is not about technique.... it is about producing a type of movement with the body... it is about blending with your opponent. They took that wrist lock and took the lock out of it, so they could use it as a tool to teach a body motion and blending. Other arts have also taken the lock out of that wrist lock.... some to focus on other things, others because they want to be "safe," others because they never learned it any other way.

Bear is right when he says we don't move through space intelligently or safely. He usually, and correctly, points out that you need to lock down your opponent, in order to apply the lock or they just get out of it.

The pieces that have been removed, are the pieces that put you in the right space, at the right time and that do lock the rest of the other person from easily getting out of it.

When you grip the hand for the lock, by the time your hand closes, uke's hand needs to be separated from his body, uke's balance needs to be taken, and uke's structure needs to be broken. The broken balance and structure, lock uke out from being able to get any strength back into his hand / wrist. This should all happen while closing your hand around uke's wrist. Applying the lock takes very little movement at all, but that movement comes from your body, not your arm or hand.

I spent 40ish minutes, looking on youtube, for a correct demonstration of this.... every example I find on youtube, people are moving and whipping uke's arm all over the place.... the fact that uke is not broken, shows that they do not have the pieces all put together.

The above Tritac version shown above, also leaves out the important pieces that make that wrist lock effective. He does go around the block, twice, to get some of the bits. But he still never gets all the bits. If he had all the bits, he could still do what he is doing.... it would only be a lot more effective. But, he would also be able to get there in different ways, that don't require such a trip around the block. But, until you fix the car properly, you will never understand that one with a transmission and all the working parts actually is an efficient way to travel. If all you have ever seen, is a busted up car, without a transmission.... then yeah, you would conclude cars are terrible for transportation.
 
Agreed.




We have an interesting situation here, where something has been broken and has pieces missing. Since it is broken, it does not work and is not effective. But what we are doing is trying to find ways for the broken item to function anyway.... without restoring the missing pieces or repairing the item.

We have a broken car.... the transmission has been ripped out. It is not effective. But, instead of fixing the car, and replacing the transmission, we are coming up with scenarios where if the car is on a hill, it will roll down the hill.... maybe if the hill is not steep enough, the vibration of the engine will help get it going.... but this leads to solutions like damaging the fly wheel, to unbalance it and cause more vibration, rather that replacing the missing pieces.....

The wrist lock we have been looking at has been broken. Pieces have been removed. So we are now looking at this broken, half technique and are trying to fix it, by finding a situation where the broken, half technique can be useful.

Aikido is not about technique.... it is about producing a type of movement with the body... it is about blending with your opponent. They took that wrist lock and took the lock out of it, so they could use it as a tool to teach a body motion and blending. Other arts have also taken the lock out of that wrist lock.... some to focus on other things, others because they want to be "safe," others because they never learned it any other way.

Bear is right when he says we don't move through space intelligently or safely. He usually, and correctly, points out that you need to lock down your opponent, in order to apply the lock or they just get out of it.

The pieces that have been removed, are the pieces that put you in the right space, at the right time and that do lock the rest of the other person from easily getting out of it.

When you grip the hand for the lock, by the time your hand closes, uke's hand needs to be separated from his body, uke's balance needs to be taken, and uke's structure needs to be broken. The broken balance and structure, lock uke out from being able to get any strength back into his hand / wrist. This should all happen while closing your hand around uke's wrist. Applying the lock takes very little movement at all, but that movement comes from your body, not your arm or hand.

I spent 40ish minutes, looking on youtube, for a correct demonstration of this.... every example I find on youtube, people are moving and whipping uke's arm all over the place.... the fact that uke is not broken, shows that they do not have the pieces all put together.

The above Tritac version shown above, also leaves out the important pieces that make that wrist lock effective. He does go around the block, twice, to get some of the bits. But he still never gets all the bits. If he had all the bits, he could still do what he is doing.... it would only be a lot more effective. But, he would also be able to get there in different ways, that don't require such a trip around the block. But, until you fix the car properly, you will never understand that one with a transmission and all the working parts actually is an efficient way to travel. If all you have ever seen, is a busted up car, without a transmission.... then yeah, you would conclude cars are terrible for transportation.
Oh I like wrist locks, I know a quite a few. I don’t apply them for throws, but I am not an aikido man. Take what I say here with a grain of salt, because I don’t pretend to know what was going on in that video. My original comment was questioning what made that technique “street”, I still did not receive an answer to that. To my untrained in Aikido eye the technique looked incredibly complex and slow to apply, there was a noticeable lack of leverage throughout. This is not how I was trained to apply these, but I digress. In my experience, most people Chin na themselves, it’s just a matter of whether I can trap them into it with better timing and opportunity. In any case, if it happens at speed it produces immediate results even in practice scenarios. It sounds like you are talking about entry and positioning as missing components. I agree with that, but will go one step farther to say that the proper angles are also missing, so much so that Tori has to do a bunch of acrobatics in order to sink the lock. This type of lock can be secured in a fraction of a second from a standing position that obviates the need for a throw altogether. Again, stylistic biases aside, I don’t know much about Aikido so what I say here are just the observations and musings of an outsider.
 
It sounds like you are talking about entry and positioning as missing components. I agree with that, but will go one step farther to say that the proper angles are also missing, so much so that Tori has to do a bunch of acrobatics in order to sink the lock. This type of lock can be secured in a fraction of a second from a standing position that obviates the need for a throw altogether.
I agree with you 100% here. There are a lot of things missing in the example. It would take me quite a while to write up and explain them all....

Kind of sad that it is so hard / rare to find an example of someone doing these wrist locks, as wrist locks. Used as tools to teach other things is cool.... but these days, so few people have seen the real ones....
 

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