Martial Talk's GMA Martial Arts Lineages

[Gerry Seymour]

wife + girl friend > wife

Not if your wife has 10 years of training. Just sayin'.

EDIT: And a dad who was in the KGB. Seriously.

 

[Steve]

You train sport so you can fight on the street. Fighting is your goal. Sport is only your path. IMO, your sport should not put any restriction on you.

No, YOU train sport so you can fight in the street. Fighting is YOUR goal.

 

[Steve]

You quoted Hyoho, but somehow my name got attached to the quote.

Anyway, fighting this fool doesn't take special techniques or methods. A pair of thick-soled roach stompers would be enough.

Just a guess, but I'd recommend not confusing skill with strategy.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can see that as a fair working definition in some cases. In my experience with the Chinese methods, it seems there is less focus on EXACT transmission than what you perhaps see in the Japanese koryu. Accurate transmission is important because the system is seen to work and be highly functional, so one does not want to mess it up. However, exact transmission isn't really important; changes can and do happen. I've seen my sifu make a change on the spot, with a comment like, "do it this way now, it's better." I feel confident that the original method that may or may not have originated in the 1400s (according to oral tradition) looked rather different from the system I practice today.

My definition of a traditional art, in the Chinese methods, is more along the lines of, a system that has been passed down several generations (exactly how many is kind of nebulous) and has passed the test of time and shows itself to still be a highly functional and effective method.

My definition of "traditional" is simply an art that strives to maintain some parts of the traditions from its origin. So, NGA keeps the Japanese bow (somewhat bastardized) and a few other bits of tradition that really aren't necessary to the efficacy of the art. Thus, I consider it "traditional", though others would call it "modern" since it was founded in the 1940's.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Depends upon the criteria for evaluation.

I'm agreeing with you too much lately, Steve. Say something I disagree with, already!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Who copies? Your teacher hands on to you the fundamentals. In turn we add our own character to that. Where many people go wrong is they try to add character before they fully understand those fundamentals. Just how much should we study those fundamentals? Most of the arts are about repetition and as Musashi said "Ten thousand times is still not enough". It's far too easy to add our own quirks to what we do. We should spend a lifetime trying to remove them, not 'add them'.

If you are experienced enough and watch someone perform and appreciate those fundamentals with their added character. If you can't see that? You still need to learn a lot more.

Actually, I've trained with people who tried their damnedest to be exact copies of their instructor. I consider it a colossal mistake.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well it has to be my opinion as I do lead and head one classical art and am licenced to teach another. My headmasters taught me something they wanted to hand down. First and foremost is my obligation to them. As they passed on that obligation is even deeper. The answer is in my sig. We have philosophical teachings as well as the art itself.

Here's where my mind takes me on that, Hyoho: are you teaching exactly what was originated, or following the principles and delivering the best version of that art you can (which is doubtless what the founder was doing)?

In my opinion (and it's only worth what any opinion is worth), trying to deliver exactly what someone else created is missing the point of their creation. They were doing the best they had with the information they had available, and I believe they would expect their successors to do the same. You have information Musashi didn't. What would he have done with that information?

 

[kuniggety]

Not if your wife has 10 years of training. Just sayin'.

EDIT: And a dad who was in the KGB. Seriously.

But what if the gf is you and your wife's training partner?

 

[Steve]

My definition of "traditional" is simply an art that strives to maintain some parts of the traditions from its origin. So, NGA keeps the Japanese bow (somewhat bastardized) and a few other bits of tradition that really aren't necessary to the efficacy of the art. Thus, I consider it "traditional", though others would call it "modern" since it was founded in the 1940's.

is BJJ traditional?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

"Smart answer" But my teacher would never talk on the phone. He would always want to sit down and discuss things face to face. He had no trust in phones. Problem is nowadays there are too many people that think like smartphones with an easy answer and a 'shortcut'. Do you really consider the arts to be like an electrical appliance?

There is a similarity. We know things now that weren't known 100 years ago. Should we not update our systems with this new knowledge?

 

[Hyoho]

40 years ago you would never expect that someday you will have to fight someone like this.

http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131007/1000/daily_gifdump_470_15.gif

Well I guess we will never agree to a point. I teach/practice and have won and my students have won national competitions in more modern arts invented in the late1800s)

I also try to hand on a classical, artistic cultural activity as it was taught to me. Maybe not in its entirety but at least it contains the ethics that go along with it keep it correct. To quote Nippon Budokan: Martial arts, Japan in particular has survived since WWll because of the sport-like educational merits they possess.

Will I ever use it? No, it's a particular art form I am interested in that I studied in my country of residence. Never have I ever needed to look at martial arts as a form of defence. A dark night and a piece of 2x2 serves that purpose. Is that martial arts? I guess it is because the real stuff has no rules.

Where I live now I have a decent taser, a few pistols, a rifle and two GSDs and lots of 2x2 from trees I just chainsawed. But mostly that's to keep cobra off the land.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To say that a boxer trains single leg can make his boxing "un-pure" just make no sense to me.

- We boxers don't do single leg.
- Single leg is against the boxing principle.
- Single leg will make boxing un-pure.
- ...

boxing + single leg > boxing

I think Steve's point is that the single-leg won't improve the boxer's boxing, if he's fighting by boxing rules. And he's right in that. Adding the single-leg is a distraction in that context. In a combat-effectiveness context, it's a gain.

 

[Steve]

But what if the gf is you and your wife's training partner?

Bow chicka wow wow. Oh yeah.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As we all know the written teachings if any are taken from Confucian analects and Buddhist teachings. I see new headmasters increase their study in Buddhism in an effort to reach a deeper understanding of what we do. This often translates into actual movement.

I may be too tired right now, but I didn't understand this post, Hyoho.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You train sport so you can fight on the street. Fighting is your goal. Sport is only your path. IMO, your sport should not put any restriction on you.

Not for everyone.

 

[Steve]

I think Steve's point is that the single-leg won't improve the boxer's boxing, if he's fighting by boxing rules. And he's right in that. Adding the single-leg is a distraction in that context. In a combat-effectiveness context, it's a gain.

That's right. Better is a subjective term that will depend up entirely on goals and desired outcomes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You quoted Hyoho, but somehow my name got attached to the quote.

Anyway, fighting this fool doesn't take special techniques or methods. A pair of thick-soled roach stompers would be enough.

Or even just...well...looking at him funny.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

is BJJ traditional?

I don't know - I'm not familiar with the training environment in BJJ. Do you guys maintain some cultural traditions that are unrelated to the techniques (other than language - that's a natural)?

 

[Steve]

I don't know - I'm not familiar with the training environment in BJJ. Do you guys maintain some cultural traditions that are unrelated to the techniques (other than language - that's a natural)?

Sure. We wear a Gi. Many schools bow at the beginning or end of class.

 

[Hyoho]

Here's where my mind takes me on that, Hyoho: are you teaching exactly what was originated, or following the principles and delivering the best version of that art you can (which is doubtless what the founder was doing)?

In my opinion (and it's only worth what any opinion is worth), trying to deliver exactly what someone else created is missing the point of their creation. They were doing the best they had with the information they had available, and I believe they would expect their successors to do the same. You have information Musashi didn't. What would he have done with that information?

We are fortunate enough to have written work that goes along with what we do. Even people who do not practice the arts use these teachings to try and further their own path in life. With Musashi it's the transformation of the 'killing sword' to the 'life giving sword' that fascinates many. To use only 'sen'. Sen being the epitome of waza. It's the concept of a survivor we value.