Martial Talk's GMA Martial Arts Lineages

[Steve]

My understanding of the koryu approach (from what Chris Parker has said) is that they maintain the tradition and principles, but don't attempt to maintiain it entirely without change.

I never said something becomes irrelevant in the modern world because it is maintained. I said if it is maintained too rigidly, the human inability to pass it along exactly will cause it to degrade (incremental loss unaccompanied by incremental gain). Given enough degradation, it may become irrelevant for the original context.

The comment about what was held back (or even forgotten) 3 generations ago is actually my point. Something did not make it across that gap, guaranteed. If nobody seeks to tweak the system from one generation to the next, then nothing is replacing what is lost. In some cases, later generations are likely to "discover" material that once was part of the system, but was lost in transmission. It was found once because it fits within the principles of the art, so if it's effective, it will likely be discovered again for the same reasons.

I don't know about koryu, but I can respect that there are many reasons to learn an art. I have said in the past that I define traditional styles as those where the effectiveness of a technique is less important than how the technique is performed. nothing wrong with that at all. Doesn't mean a technique is ineffective. Rather, it means that efficacy isn't th number one concern.

I can easily imagine that a traditional art may value a faithful transmission of the entire system over all other concerns. There's no wrong or right in that. And in a style like this, lineage may matter a great deal, as it speaks to authenticity.

This is just one legit reason lineage matters.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've got to chuckle when people say that something must change or must adapt.

"Add" is different from "change".

boxing + single leg > boxing
wrestling + side kick > wrestling
Judo + flying knee > Judo
wife + girl friend > wife

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't know about koryu, but I can respect that there are many reasons to learn an art. I have said in the past that I define traditional styles as those where the effectiveness of a technique is less important than how the technique is performed. nothing wrong with that at all. Doesn't mean a technique is ineffective. Rather, it means that efficacy isn't th number one concern.

I can easily imagine that a traditional art may value a faithful transmission of the entire system over all other concerns. There's no wrong or right in that. And in a style like this, lineage may matter a great deal, as it speaks to authenticity.

This is just one legit reason lineage matters.

I can see that as a fair working definition in some cases. In my experience with the Chinese methods, it seems there is less focus on EXACT transmission than what you perhaps see in the Japanese koryu. Accurate transmission is important because the system is seen to work and be highly functional, so one does not want to mess it up. However, exact transmission isn't really important; changes can and do happen. I've seen my sifu make a change on the spot, with a comment like, "do it this way now, it's better." I feel confident that the original method that may or may not have originated in the 1400s (according to oral tradition) looked rather different from the system I practice today.

My definition of a traditional art, in the Chinese methods, is more along the lines of, a system that has been passed down several generations (exactly how many is kind of nebulous) and has passed the test of time and shows itself to still be a highly functional and effective method.

 

[Flying Crane]

"Add" is different from "change".

boxing + single leg > boxing
wrestling + side kick > wrestling
Judo + flying knee > Judo
wife + girl friend > wife

I also chuckle when people say we MUST add this or that.

 

[Steve]

"Add" is different from "change".

boxing + single leg > boxing
wrestling + side kick > wrestling
Judo + flying knee > Judo
wife + girl friend > wife

Depends upon the criteria for evaluation.

 

[Hyoho]

If you just teach exactly what your teacher taught you. You are a good "copy machine" and you make no contribution to your MA system. No matter how many books that you have read, if you don't write your own book, you are only a "reader" and you are not a "writer".

In

- traditional hip throw, you use your hip to bounce your opponent's body off the ground.
- modified hip throw, you raise from a low horse stance into a high horse stance to lift your opponent's body off the ground.

Both methods work well on the mat.

Who copies? Your teacher hands on to you the fundamentals. In turn we add our own character to that. Where many people go wrong is they try to add character before they fully understand those fundamentals. Just how much should we study those fundamentals? Most of the arts are about repetition and as Musashi said "Ten thousand times is still not enough". It's far too easy to add our own quirks to what we do. We should spend a lifetime trying to remove them, not 'add them'.

If you are experienced enough and watch someone perform and appreciate those fundamentals with their added character. If you can't see that? You still need to learn a lot more.

 

[Hyoho]

I'm not really trying to keep alive tradition - that's not my purpose. I do some of that to maintain links to the larger art and because it's what I'm comfortable with, but that's about it.

Well it has to be my opinion as I do lead and head one classical art and am licenced to teach another. My headmasters taught me something they wanted to hand down. First and foremost is my obligation to them. As they passed on that obligation is even deeper. The answer is in my sig. We have philosophical teachings as well as the art itself.

 

[Hyoho]

If we respect the tradition, today we are still using this,

and not this.

"Smart answer" But my teacher would never talk on the phone. He would always want to sit down and discuss things face to face. He had no trust in phones. Problem is nowadays there are too many people that think like smartphones with an easy answer and a 'shortcut'. Do you really consider the arts to be like an electrical appliance?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Depends upon the criteria for evaluation.

To say that a boxer trains single leg can make his boxing "un-pure" just make no sense to me.

- We boxers don't do single leg.
- Single leg is against the boxing principle.
- Single leg will make boxing un-pure.
- ...

boxing + single leg > boxing

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you really consider the arts to be like an electrical appliance?

Will you say that the following is bad idea?

- A boxer adds wrestling skill into his training.
- A wrestler adds boxing skill into his training.

boxing + wrestling > boxing
wrestling + boxing > wrestling

 

[Flying Crane]

To say that a boxer trains single leg can make his boxing "un-pure" just make no sense to me.

- We boxers don't do single leg.
- Single leg is against the boxing principle.
- Single leg will make boxing un-pure.
- ...

boxing + single leg > boxing

Well sure, a boxer can learn takedowns and anything else he wants. Or not. It's his choice and either choice is right for him, if that is what he wants to do.

 

[CB Jones]

I've always liked this quote from Atlee Chittim:

Mr. Chittim is remembered for the following quotation found in the constitution of the United States Karate Association.

"Let me stress to the membership that they keep an open mind and choose from the various styles of karate the things that work for them. Fight rough and tough so as to show the matchless American fighting ability. The daydreamers and romantics are those who feel they must copy some other country's fighting spirit."

 

[Hyoho]

My understanding of the koryu approach (from what Chris Parker has said) is that they maintain the tradition and principles, but don't attempt to maintain it entirely without change.

As we all know the written teachings if any are taken from Confucian analects and Buddhist teachings. I see new headmasters increase their study in Buddhism in an effort to reach a deeper understanding of what we do. This often translates into actual movement.

 

[Flying Crane]

Will you say that the following is bad idea?

- A boxer adds wrestling skill into his training.
- A wrestler adds boxing skill into his training.

I say it's a neutral idea.

If the boxer wants to do that, great. If he does not want to, great.

Same for the wrestler.

It depends on his purposes in his training, and what he feels is valuable to his goals and motivations. But to say that he MUST?? Utter nonsense.

 

[Steve]

To say that a boxer trains single leg can make his boxing "un-pure" just make no sense to me.

- We boxers don't do single leg.
- Single leg is against the boxing principle.
- Single leg will make boxing un-pure.
- ...

boxing + single leg > boxing

try throwing a single leg in a boxing match and tell me how that works for you.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you really consider the arts to be like an electrical appliance?

40 years ago you would never expect that someday you will have to fight someone like this.

http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131007/1000/daily_gifdump_470_15.gif

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

try throwing a single leg in a boxing match and tell me how that works for you.

You train sport so you can fight on the street. Fighting is your goal. Sport is only your path. IMO, your sport should not put any restriction on you.

 

[Xue Sheng]

40 years ago you would never expect that someday you will have to fight someone like this.

http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131007/1000/daily_gifdump_470_15.gif

and 150 years ago you had to fight someone like this

Still has nothing to do with electronics but fighting like this

150 years ago would get you killed....so... is that actually an advancement...and even today, try that in the street, since you brought the street into this in post 137.... would get you hurt

 

[Flying Crane]

40 years ago you would never expect that someday you will have to fight someone like this.

http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131007/1000/daily_gifdump_470_15.gif

You quoted Hyoho, but somehow my name got attached to the quote.

Anyway, fighting this fool doesn't take special techniques or methods. A pair of thick-soled roach stompers would be enough.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't know about koryu, but I can respect that there are many reasons to learn an art. I have said in the past that I define traditional styles as those where the effectiveness of a technique is less important than how the technique is performed. nothing wrong with that at all. Doesn't mean a technique is ineffective. Rather, it means that efficacy isn't th number one concern.

I can easily imagine that a traditional art may value a faithful transmission of the entire system over all other concerns. There's no wrong or right in that. And in a style like this, lineage may matter a great deal, as it speaks to authenticity.

This is just one legit reason lineage matters.

That's a good point. My focus is on the effectiveness of something in whatever context it is meant to be effective. Others may have a different view, so there may be a context in which freezing in time at some arbitrary point is a perfect approach to achieve the desired end.