Martial Talk's GMA Martial Arts Lineages

[Hyoho]

I learned my katas & kihon from my teacher... my teacher learned it from her teacher and his teacher learned.............................well im guessing you understand that concept

Sure I do. Katas are made up and someone made it up in the first place and broken down into kihon (fundamental). It's not a waza is it? Don't you think you would have been better using the word connections? If we all put down individual trees it would be too big to fill this page. As I said Trees, branches, leaves.

So here is my karate lineage..... Miyagi Chojun - Chojiro Tani - Suzuki Sensei - Me.

Looks rather ridiculous to me but I wrote it anyway.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Lineage usually means family and rather grandiose word to use. Connections is a better word. It's not me that's over generalizing.

It means whatever it means in context. In the context of MA discussions, most people use it to refer to the string of instructors promoting and/or training instructors. Nothing grandiose about it. The usage is a derivation from the geneological use. Since words mean exactly what people think they mean, and most people use the term "lineage" to refer to this string of instructors, who are you to demand they use something different?

 

[Hyoho]

Lol I am not demanding anything. As you say a string of instructors. How long is piece of string?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Lol I am not demanding anything. As you say a string of instructors. How long is piece of string?

What on earth does that question have to do with the topic??

 

[Balrog]

I pretty much have taken the idea from that lineage website etc Feel free to post your lineage and see where it traces to. IMO it is very important to know where your specific Martial Art comes from. You don't want to learn from someone who learned from some guy in the back of a laundromat. How you post it is up to you. You can post a picture, video desribing your lineage, or you can just type it out.

Grandmaster H. U. Lee
Jack Yoder
Sam Phrumjuntun
Larry Spencer
Me

 

[Steve]

Lol I am not demanding anything. As you say a string of instructors. How long is piece of string?

as long as it is, of course. Do you have a particular string in mind?

Reminds me of the string who was in a bar. Bartender said, "hey! We don't serve your kind in here." He had the string kicked out by the bouncers, and they weren't very nice about it. Sitting on the curb, bruised and battered, the string decides he's not going to put up with this crap. He goes back into the bar and orders a drink. Bartender says, "you look really familiar. Aren't you that string I just had thrown out?" The string said, "no, I'm a frayed knot."

Hahahaha. Oh, I'm funny. Whew.... I crack myself up.

 

[Hyoho]

as long as it is, of course. Do you have a particular string in mind?

Reminds me of the string who was in a bar. Bartender said, "hey! We don't serve your kind in here." He had the string kicked out by the bouncers, and they weren't very nice about it. Sitting on the curb, bruised and battered, the string decides he's not going to put up with this crap. He goes back into the bar and orders a drink. Bartender says, "you look really familiar. Aren't you that string I just had thrown out?" The string said, "no, I'm a frayed knot."

Hahahaha. Oh, I'm funny. Whew.... I crack myself up.

Lol in this case an MA string. "As long as a piece of string" denotes length or size is unknown, infinite, or variable. My point of view is not my own but identifies with what Japanese think of lineage.

Talking to foreigners about lineage, black belts and legitimacy bring new and alternative meaning to Budo.

Simply put one form of rank (Shodan) or a black belt is awarded by an association.

The second system and older is that arts have 'no rank'. There is a possibility of two levels for one person three for a new leader and addition to the "lineage". First. Strength of purpose certification. Second. A licence. The third being full transmission and gives the lineage thing.

I clearly remember taking a Sohke to another country and some foreigner coming up to him to say "Oh I'm a Sohke too.

It's really simple. Go the lineage route and give up taking belts. Or the other way round. You can't be both.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The lineage can cause a lot of problem. My long fist teacher recommended one of my long fist brothers to learn directly from my long fist teacher's teacher. After many years, one day my long fist brother called my long first teacher as "brother". That made my long fist teacher mad big time. Since then, my long fist teacher and my long fist brother became enemy all these years.

Assume A is B's teacher. If B's student C also learns from A, Should C call B as "teacher", or "brother?

If C calls B as

- teacher, C shows disrespect to A because B and A are not on the same level.
- brother, C shows disrespect to B because B was C's teacher before.

One day someone wanted to be my Shuai Chiao teacher's disciple. My SC teacher said, "Your teacher wanted to be my disciple and I turned him down, how can I accept you as my disciple?"

In one Chinese secret society (similar to Freemason) I belong the 23th generation. One day one of my friend's father told me that he belongs to the 27th generation. I'm 4 generation above him but he is my friend's father.

The idea of lineage can be a big mess sometime.

 

[Andrew Green]

That made my long fist teacher mad big time. Since then, my long fist teacher and my long fist brother became enemy all these years.

And yet we, as a industry, claim to teach humility. The hierarchical nature of high ranks does nothing but cause problems. We have people that have 20-30-40-50 years experience that feel they have to answer to someone simply because they have more stripes on their belts.

We are all brother / sisters in this, whether you have been training a day or a lifetime, there is more to learn and something to learn from you.

Any instructor that fears one of their students surpassing them instead of looks forward to it is teaching for the wrong reasons.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The hierarchical nature of high ranks does nothing but cause problems.

When I worked for IBM, one day I asked my 2nd line manager to transfer me to a different department. My 2nd line manager asked me why, I told him that my new 1st line manager was one of my MA students. IMO, I just don't know how to work properly under one of my MA students. It's much easier for me to transfer out of that situation and avoid problem.

After all we are all just human being.

 

[Hyoho]

And yet we, as a industry, claim to teach humility. The hierarchical nature of high ranks does nothing but cause problems. We have people that have 20-30-40-50 years experience that feel they have to answer to someone simply because they have more stripes on their belts.

We are all brother / sisters in this, whether you have been training a day or a lifetime, there is more to learn and something to learn from you.

Any instructor that fears one of their students surpassing them instead of looks forward to it is teaching for the wrong reasons.

It does have problems and why your average Japanese just want to belong to an association, practice, go home and occasionally take gradings. For most it a minimum sandan requirement to get a job. For the rest it's like little league. Take the kids to learn and do a bit yourself.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My Taiji lineage is very funny. I learned Taiji from my Shuai Chiao teacher. If I trace my Taiji lineage through my Shuai Chiao teacher, my Taiji lineage is one general below general Li Jing-Lin.

That will make me the same generation as Yang Chen-Fu.

That also make me one generation above Cheng Man-Ching.

But since my long fist teacher's teacher learned Taiji from Yang Chen-Fu. If I trace my Taiji lineage through my long fist teacher, I'm 3 generations below Yang Chen-Fu.

If you have more than one MA teacher, the lineage can be a big mess.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Lol in this case an MA string. "As long as a piece of string" denotes length or size is unknown, infinite, or variable. My point of view is not my own but identifies with what Japanese think of lineage.

Talking to foreigners about lineage, black belts and legitimacy bring new and alternative meaning to Budo.

Simply put one form of rank (Shodan) or a black belt is awarded by an association.

The second system and older is that arts have 'no rank'. There is a possibility of two levels for one person three for a new leader and addition to the "lineage". First. Strength of purpose certification. Second. A licence. The third being full transmission and gives the lineage thing.

I clearly remember taking a Sohke to another country and some foreigner coming up to him to say "Oh I'm a Sohke too.

It's really simple. Go the lineage route and give up taking belts. Or the other way round. You can't be both.

No. Just no.

You're once again insisting lineage means what you want it to mean. That may be what the closest word in Japanese would mean, and might be the closest concept for the Japanese. It is not, however, how the word is commonly used in the US. And since there have been folks from other English-speaking countries posting to this thread without issue, I have to assume the usage is similar there.

With the traditional licensing/trasmission certificates, lineage could mean what you refer to (the procession of head-of-style). Even there, in English, it could also refer to the chain of licensed instructors from the originator of the art to a given individual. Note that this is not about how the term would be used in Japan - there may be no truly equivalent term, as is often the case in translations - but about how the word is used in the English language.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When I worked for IBM, one day I asked my 2nd line manager to transfer me to a different department. My 2nd line manager asked me why, I told him that my new 1st line manager was one of my MA students. IMO, I just don't know how to work properly under one of my MA students. It's much easier for me to transfer out of that situation and avoid problem.

After all we are all just human being.

We are, and even in an informal instructor-student relationship, that can make the employee-manager relationship awkward (ever notice how awkward it is to type the word "awkward"?). I would expect that to be a more difficult situation for the student than the instructor.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And yet we, as a industry, claim to teach humility. The hierarchical nature of high ranks does nothing but cause problems. We have people that have 20-30-40-50 years experience that feel they have to answer to someone simply because they have more stripes on their belts.

We are all brother / sisters in this, whether you have been training a day or a lifetime, there is more to learn and something to learn from you.

Any instructor that fears one of their students surpassing them instead of looks forward to it is teaching for the wrong reasons.

Agreed. The only "fear" I have in that (and one I am sure to realize eventually, especially as I age) is not having the fun of being able to overwhelm them to show where they've made a mistake. Some day I'll have a student who gets skilled enough, and I'll lose enough to age, that I won't be able to do that.

On the plus side, someday I hope to have a student or two who are better technically than me. Maybe at least one who is a better fighter than me. And if I'm really lucky, I'll produce some instructors who are better than me. Then I'll have made a real impact.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Simply put one form of rank (Shodan) or a black belt is awarded by an association.

The second system and older is that arts have 'no rank'. There is a possibility of two levels for one person three for a new leader and addition to the "lineage". First. Strength of purpose certification. Second. A licence. The third being full transmission and gives the lineage thing.

I'd also like to point out that these two are not always as different as you might think. Shojin-ryu has only 3 ranks that wear a black belt. I've used "dan" ranks, because I'm used to them, but they are actually more like the licensing approach. Shodan is a student rank, just shows technical competency at a high level. Nidan is an Instructor certification, and allows them to promote to any rank below them (including shodan). Sandan is a Senior Instructor certification, and allows them to promote to any rank, including Sandan - it is an acknowledgement that they have a full grasp of all the technical and conceptual skills needed to pass on the system to the next generation of teachers.

I see a similar approach in other styles, though they use more belts. Most seem to prefer a group of instructors or an association to award higher ranks, but there are several that allow instructors above a certain rank to do all their promotions.

 

[BigJavi973]

as long as it is, of course. Do you have a particular string in mind?

Reminds me of the string who was in a bar. Bartender said, "hey! We don't serve your kind in here." He had the string kicked out by the bouncers, and they weren't very nice about it. Sitting on the curb, bruised and battered, the string decides he's not going to put up with this crap. He goes back into the bar and orders a drink. Bartender says, "you look really familiar. Aren't you that string I just had thrown out?" The string said, "no, I'm a frayed knot."

Hahahaha. Oh, I'm funny. Whew.... I crack myself up.

bwahahahahahahahahha thats a good one!

 

[JR 137]

No. Just no.

You're once again insisting lineage means what you want it to mean. That may be what the closest word in Japanese would mean, and might be the closest concept for the Japanese. It is not, however, how the word is commonly used in the US. And since there have been folks from other English-speaking countries posting to this thread without issue, I have to assume the usage is similar there.

With the traditional licensing/trasmission certificates, lineage could mean what you refer to (the procession of head-of-style). Even there, in English, it could also refer to the chain of licensed instructors from the originator of the art to a given individual. Note that this is not about how the term would be used in Japan - there may be no truly equivalent term, as is often the case in translations - but about how the word is used in the English language.

I think he's thinking in terms of the art's lineage, whereas the rest of us are thinking in terms of individual lineage.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Any instructor that fears one of their students surpassing them instead of looks forward to it is teaching for the wrong reasons.

On the other hand, you don't want to teach some student who will beat you up when you are old and sick someday. It's not black and white. There are grey in between. You still just want to teach good guys and you don't want to teach bad guys. The MA lineage and hierarchy exist for a good reason. When you respect your previous generation, your next generation will respect you as well.

With lineage, a MA teacher may care about his students criminal record. Without lineage, a wrestling coach may not care his students criminal record that much.

 

[Andrew Green]

On the other hand, you don't want to teach some student who will beat you up when you are old and sick someday. It's not black and white.

I can't say that ever crossed my mind. If I ever trained anyone to a high level that liked to beat up old and sick people I'd have failed at my job.