Martial Sacrilege (part 1)

[Danny T]

angelo Dundee?

Dundee never boxed himself but he did far more than read a book to learn his craft as a trainer.
He started as a second corner man and bucket man in boxing tournaments while in the U.S. military during WWII. After being discharged he work as a assistant & 2nd corner man for Charlie Goldman, Ray Arcel, and Chickie Ferrera at Stillman’s Gym. His brother a professional boxer opened the famous 5th Street Gym in Miami and he continued to hone his craft there eventually becoming the head trainer. He learned to be a good trainer by being in gym working with other trainers and boxers not by just reading a book.

 

[jks9199]

Lots of people offering thoughts on this... Here's my take: A black belt has exactly the meaning given it by the wearer, the association, and those who view them. No more, no less. It's not a magic talisman that makes you a wise life counselor, or a sign that you're an invincible fighting machine, or even a fantastic teacher. You might well be any or none of those things -- but the black belt (or equivalent ranking or title) doesn't make you one. It's nothing more than an indicator that you met the standard defined by one person or organization at one point in time.

How long should it take to get a black belt? Don't know. How much is there to learn to earn the title in your school? Time does matter, because even though you might acquire all the knowledge, physical skills take some time to really soak in and get properly integrated with your body. There's obviously some individual variance on that -- but it takes some time and repetitions... No real substitute for that.

So... a one year black belt? Not in my system or my school. But can you acquire many of the skills? How hard do you want to work? How focused is your training on those skills? I can take someone, and in a matter of months, give them the skills to fight and beat black belts. It'll be about fighting -- no really form/kata stuff, lots of hard, intense drills and practice, and conditioning. But we also expect a black belt to have an adequate understanding of the principles to be able to teach -- and that also takes time. But that doesn't mean nobody else can do it that way in their system. The senshusei program in Yoshinkan aikido is an obvious example...

Dundee never boxed himself but he did far more than read a book to learn his craft as a trainer.
He started as a second corner man and bucket man in boxing tournaments while in the U.S. military during WWII. After being discharged he work as a assistant & 2nd corner man for Charlie Goldman, Ray Arcel, and Chickie Ferrera at Stillman’s Gym. His brother a professional boxer opened the famous 5th Street Gym in Miami and he continued to hone his craft there eventually becoming the head trainer. He learned to be a good trainer by being in gym working with other trainers and boxers not by just reading a book.

One other thing... Dundee didn't become a boxer -- he became a boxing trainer. There's a distinction... He worked with greats and learned how to coach and correct and what it takes to form a great boxer. How many great boxers go on to be even decent trainers?

 

[jobo]

Dundee never boxed himself but he did far more than read a book to learn his craft as a trainer.
He started as a second corner man and bucket man in boxing tournaments while in the U.S. military during WWII. After being discharged he work as a assistant & 2nd corner man for Charlie Goldman, Ray Arcel, and Chickie Ferrera at Stillman’s Gym. His brother a professional boxer opened the famous 5th Street Gym in Miami and he continued to hone his craft there eventually becoming the head trainer. He learned to be a good trainer by being in gym working with other trainers and boxers not by just reading a book.

you don't possibly know where he learnt his art, but in our discussion he was NEVER a boxing " black belt" yet was a talented teacher, this supporting the point i made that you don't have to be skilled at what you teach to teach it very well

 

[drop bear]

you don't possibly know where he learnt his art, but in our discussion he was NEVER a boxing " black belt" yet was a talented teacher, this supporting the point i made that you don't have to be skilled at what you teach to teach it very well

Personal experience as a trainer. Is still personal experience.

And not a book.

So coaching is still a skill.

 

[Hyoho]

You have made that statement before, but that is not universal, even in Japan. The founder of NGA in Hokkaido used BB as an instructor designation in the 1960’s.

Maybe worth mentioning . Maybe I mentioned this before. Japanese Asssociations tend to send Yudansha (High ranking black belts) to other countries. For big associations it a kind of a retirement present as 65 year olds take a back seat for younger guys to run things.

Out of all those that go the majority cant speak English, so many learn by example and some end up doing 'old mans' MA. The goals for MA are usually set out by age and expectancy.

A very large percentage of these visitors can't or don't teach. You need a teaching qualification to do that. But by all means you can help. Even kyu grades should be helping. MA is a 'we' thing.

 

[jobo]

Personal experience as a trainer. Is still personal experience.

And not a book.

So coaching is still a skill.

reading a book is an experience!

 

[Danny T]

My point is,,,, that some one who has never done karate can read a book and teach just as well as the first guy, so he deserves a black belt as well

So this wasn't your point? But this is what you wrote...even stating specifically that your point is ..."can read a book and teach just as well as the first guy..."

you don't possibly know where he learnt his art, but in our discussion he was NEVER a boxing " black belt" yet was a talented teacher, this supporting the point i made that you don't have to be skilled at what you teach to teach it very well

Correct Dundee was never a boxing black belt. But then I've never heard of anyone being a boxing black belt, even within all the world champions boxers. Maybe there are some, I did do a little research but nothing came up as yet.

What I stated as to Dundee's experience in learning his "craft as a trainer" is documented and not something I made up.

I agree that one can be a good teacher, instructor,...etc. and not necessarily be skilled at what is being taught. That wasn't my point. It was that Dundee didn't just read a book to learn his craft though I would expect that he did a lot of research. He spent years in the gym working as an assistant under several world class trainers as they worked with their boxers. His experiences learning the sweet science wasn't just from reading a book.

 

[drop bear]

reading a book is an experience!

Thanks for that Chris Parker.

 

[Buka]

I urge you all to read My View from the Corner by Angelo Dundee. Not to teach you anything, it's just a really good read.

 

[oftheherd1]

it was slightly tongue in cheek, but it should be like army rank, you need to add retired to your rank when you are four stone over weight with bad knees and a herniated disc, they could have a yellow stripe at the back of their black belt to signify this

So in your art you are expected to become cowardly as you age? What was the name of your art again? And what army did you serve in that age equated to cowardice?

Sorry, not a concept I would say was tongue in cheek.

 

[jobo]

So in your art you are expected to become cowardly as you age? What was the name of your art again? And what army did you serve in that age equated to cowardice?

Sorry, not a concept I would say was tongue in cheek.

I'm not sure what you are on about, its not about becoming a coward, its about becoming old and less capable.

my ex farther in law, had been a major in the army about 30 years before, he would nt let go of his rank, he sent the wedding invites out in the name major jones( retired). That's what I'm sugeating black belts should do, when they are too old to do karate properly, they should tell people they are a black belt ( retired), the yellow stripe is to let others know to go easy on them, or they could just have a disability sticker on their suit

 

[lklawson]

But... but... Sir Jackie is retired. He's too old. He's not capable of doing the things he did when he was in his 20's. Therefore he can't possibly be capable of teaching.

I heard that Cus D'Amato couldn't actually beat up Tyson. No idea why so many boxer went to a broken down old dude for coaching. Just makes no sense.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

erars

A first degree black belt or in Japan 'shodan' is a begginers grade. Somewhere along the line is has got misenterpreted.

It happened a long long time ago. By 1961 it was firmly entrenched as a definition.

From Black Belt Magazine, Vol 1. No. 1, 1961:
"Editorial:
Black Belt - We chose this name for our magazine for two reasons. First, only in the Oriental self-defense arts and sports is the black belt worn as part of the uniform. And then it is worn only by an individual who has achieved the rank of sho-dan, or "first degree."
Second, it has a deep significance for all enthusiasts of Judo, Aikido, Karate, and Kendo. This is because the black belt denotes the expert. The wearer of the black belt is recognized as a qualified instructor. Until one wears the black belt he is not satisfied with his accomplishment."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not sure what you are on about, its not about becoming a coward, its about becoming old and less capable.

my ex farther in law, had been a major in the army about 30 years before, he would nt let go of his rank, he sent the wedding invites out in the name major jones( retired). That's what I'm sugeating black belts should do, when they are too old to do karate properly, they should tell people they are a black belt ( retired), the yellow stripe is to let others know to go easy on them, or they could just have a disability sticker on their suit

Once again, you are imposing your meaning upon others. Black belt does not mean "I can currently do spinning kicks" or anything of the sort.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It happened a long long time ago. By 1961 it was firmly entrenched as a definition.

From Black Belt Magazine, Vol 1. No. 1, 1961:
"Editorial:
Black Belt - We chose this name for our magazine for two reasons. First, only in the Oriental self-defense arts and sports is the black belt worn as part of the uniform. And then it is worn only by an individual who has achieved the rank of sho-dan, or "first degree."
Second, it has a deep significance for all enthusiasts of Judo, Aikido, Karate, and Kendo. This is because the black belt denotes the expert. The wearer of the black belt is recognized as a qualified instructor. Until one wears the black belt he is not satisfied with his accomplishment."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

This would be about the same time NGA made a start in the US.

 

[oftheherd1]

I'm not sure what you are on about, its not about becoming a coward, its about becoming old and less capable.

my ex farther in law, had been a major in the army about 30 years before, he would nt let go of his rank, he sent the wedding invites out in the name major jones( retired). That's what I'm sugeating black belts should do, when they are too old to do karate properly, they should tell people they are a black belt ( retired), the yellow stripe is to let others know to go easy on them, or they could just have a disability sticker on their suit

I'm not sure I buy your explanation. But taking the high side, since it often appears that English is not your primary language, perhaps you would like to look at the below URLs.

What does Yellow stripe down your back mean

Urban Dictionary: have a yellow streak down your back

Where did the concept of being yellow come from?

have a yellow streak down back

BTW, in what country does a yellow stripe on your back mean to go easy on the wearer?

 

[jobo]

I'm not sure I buy your explanation. But taking the high side, since it often appears that English is not your primary language, perhaps you would like to look at the below URLs.

What does Yellow stripe down your back mean

Urban Dictionary: have a yellow streak down your back

Where did the concept of being yellow come from?

have a yellow streak down back

BTW, in what country does a yellow stripe on your back mean to go easy on the wearer?

yellow stripe down your back isn't actually wearing a yellow stripe you know, its purely an idiom.

 

[oftheherd1]

yellow stripe down your back isn't actually wearing a yellow stripe you know, its purely an idiom.

Ah, so you still want an out? From others maybe, but sorry, not from me.

 

[jobo]

Once again, you are imposing your meaning upon others. Black belt does not mean "I can currently do spinning kicks" or anything of the sort.

no and that's part of the problem with ma, its SHOULD Indicate a high degree of ability, but broken down has beens being BLACKBELTS, just brings the whole thing into disrepute , of course you can argue as you have that they can be instructors, which they can, but they should have a rank other than black belt, as it demeans other black dots if they can't do spining kicks or what ever.
as i suggested, black belt ( retired) is one solution,with a stripe on the belt to indicate such.

instead of the infirmed keep getting honour ranks that make it even more ridiculass

 

[jobo]

Ah, so you still want an out? From others maybe, but sorry, not from me.

i don't need an " out" you need a sense of irony