Martial Sacrilege (part 1)

[CB Jones]

So you'd want to sit in a car and have a guy half blind telling you when to break, when to turn when to change gear...

Yes I was taught how to drive when I was 12 by my disabled grandfather. He still knew how to drive just couldn't due to damage from a stroke but still had the knowledge.

 

[MA_Student]

Do you think Freddie Roach can't train boxers because he no longer can fight?

Never said he couldn't but you need to be able to demonstrate it at a high level. I've got a friend in martial arts who's only got one leg he's good at the stuff he does but I wouldn't be asking him much about how to throw kicks

 

[CB Jones]

Never said he couldn't but you need to be able to demonstrate it at a high level. I've got a friend in martial arts who's only got one leg he's good at the stuff he does but I wouldn't be asking him much about how to throw kicks

Yet if he has knowledge of what you can do to kick better you are a fool not to ask him.

 

[CB Jones]

Bill Belichick never played pro football....but as a developing football player you would be very foolish not to listen to him.

 

[Dirty Dog]

So you'd want to sit in a car and have a guy half blind telling you when to break, when to turn when to change gear...

I assume Mr Andretti knows the difference between breaking and braking, for starters...

I only have one eye. And I'm nearsighted in it. Doesn't stop me from being a good driver. Nor from teaching my kids and grandkids to drive.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but you do need to be able to pass an age related fitness test to stay in the army, no matter what rank you are.( perhaps not if your an actual general as they never actually get near any actual fighting)

if you need specified fitness abilities to gain a belt, when you can no longer perform at that level, then you black belt is just a long service sash and not an indication of ability.

i no longer wear my scout standard badge, coz there is no way i can light a fire with out matches( or a zippo)
Though i can still tie a mean bowline, I'm the only person i know that can tie a proper noose , that wasn't in badge, but it may come in handy one day

I can see your point, but again, your statements put for the assumption that the rank implies the person has a certain fitness level, etc. For instance, in the NGAA, a series of jumping kicks are required to attain ni-dan. But I have no assumption that anyone above ni-dan can still do those, unless they are in reasonable shape. Why? Because the requirements for attaining a belt are not always about what's required to operate at that belt. There's no reason a san-dan needs to be able to do a jumping kick - we just don't use them very often, and most of us never use them beyond their place as training tools.

So, if the ni-dan required the kicks, what do I know about someone who has attained that or a higher level? That they once could, can teach others to (instructor rank is sho-dan in that organization). Since that's what the belt communicates, there's no reason those folks shouldn't wear that rank.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but not perhaps the ability to use that knowledge?

If you mean for fighting/sparring, then yes, perhaps that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't like the attitude you're only a begginer when you get to black belt....um no you're not a begginer is a white belt where you know absoloutley 0. When you're a black belt you're meant to know your stuff at a good level. Frankly no ones perfect and no ones ever going to be perfect that's a fact. I think a lot of traditional places put to much emphasis on the perfect technique. Like I personally really don't care if my horse stance is exactly 50/50 in weight or if it has the correct toe and heel line because if I ever need to fight that stuffs all going out the window anyway lets be honest.

Now if guys want to do that and spend ages studying the perfect techique then good on them nothing wrong with that at all but not everyone wants that and I think that techique isn't the most important when It comes to fighting I believe conditioning, heart and determination are what makes someone good at fighting and I believe that just because someone can't do a picture perfect fighting stance but they can hold their own against anyone in a fight that doesn't mean they shouldn't be promoted.

As for the how long thing I just don't see how you can give anyone a black in a year. It's like a boxer they wouldn't be fighting for a word title in a year would they.

That depends upon how that rank is used in any given group. If a group designates black belt as the point at which there's enough foundation to start serious work (what most folks mean when they say BB = beginner), then that's what it means.

While some organizations use BB to identify serious knowledge (or at least the beginnings thereof), others use it to identify something much earlier in the process.

And equating BB to world-class elite status in boxing is a false equivalency. At no point since I got my BB (and I took FAR longer than that) have I been comparable to world championship contender in any combat sport.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So would you want to learn to drive a car off someone who's been driving for 60 years but now is half blind and has very slow reactions

That's an argumentum ad absurdum. But, yes. There would be much to learn from a highly skilled driver who has aged past that. I probably don't want him driving for me, but he could teach me some of the lessons he learned. If you take away the half-blindedness (which is the most absurd part), then I might even want to learn from his driving, assuming he was highly skilled and has maintained some of those skills in his dotage.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you'd want to sit in a car and have a guy half blind telling you when to break, when to turn when to change gear...

Do you think this is the only thing that can be learned? Do you think a boxing coach teaches boxing by saying, "Now, he's open right now! PUNCH!"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Personally the thing I absoloutley hate most are these guys who are barking out instructions about having stances as low as the ground when they're legs are totally straight

Do you know why they do that?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Never said he couldn't but you need to be able to demonstrate it at a high level. I've got a friend in martial arts who's only got one leg he's good at the stuff he does but I wouldn't be asking him much about how to throw kicks

AH! Now we get to the core of the issue. An instructor may not be able to demonstrate everything he can teach. That is only a problem if he has nobody else to do so for him. When I was student teaching, I had knee surgery. For a while, I couldn't do any kicks, and some techniques were right out, too. That was a limitation, but not really a problem. I had access to senior students and other instructors who could step in to provide the demonstration as I taught, when necessary. I've seen older instructors do the same.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Bill Belichick never played pro football....but as a developing football player you would be very foolish not to listen to him.

The assumption that a coach/physical instructor must be highly physically competent at the skill being coached is similar to the business assumption that a great programmer will be great at managing programmers.

 

[Buka]

Just cause your 70 and can't run as fast doesn't mean you can't hit the roads and do a few miles every now and then.

If you don't mind me asking, are you 70?

 

[Paul_D]

You don't want to be getting into a car with a 66 year old, I mean what are you going to learn from that?

[

 

[Dirty Dog]

You don't want to be getting into a car with a 66 year old, I mean what are you going to learn from that?
[

But... but... Sir Jackie is retired. He's too old. He's not capable of doing the things he did when he was in his 20's. Therefore he can't possibly be capable of teaching.

 

[jobo]

AH! Now we get to the core of the issue. An instructor may not be able to demonstrate everything he can teach. That is only a problem if he has nobody else to do so for him. When I was student teaching, I had knee surgery. For a while, I couldn't do any kicks, and some techniques were right out, too. That was a limitation, but not really a problem. I had access to senior students and other instructors who could step in to provide the demonstration as I taught, when necessary. I've seen older instructors do the same.

but you don't actually have to be able to do something to teach other people about it. I could teach you how to lay bricks, my brick laying is terrible, but i could still teach you how to do it properly,

i cant Tell you the number of times I've read a chapter of a book and give n a convincing lecture. On it 10 mins later.

i once flew the,Russia, to lecture on health safety in gold mining ,i subject i knew precisely nothing about, i read the book on the plane,

 

[Dirty Dog]

but you don't actually have to be able to do something to teach other people about it. I could teach you how to lay bricks, my brick laying is terrible, but i could still teach you how to do it properly,

i cant Tell you the number of times I've read a chapter of a book and give n a convincing lecture. On it 10 mins later.

i once flew the,Russia, to lecture on health safety in gold mining ,i subject i knew precisely nothing about, i read the book on the plane,

Not surprisingly, a silly and spurious argument. None of those examples have anything to do with an expert who is teaching something they can no longer physically do.
I know a neurosurgeon with Parkinson’s who can no longer perform surgery. But he’s one hell of a teacher.



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[Gerry Seymour]

but you don't actually have to be able to do something to teach other people about it. I could teach you how to lay bricks, my brick laying is terrible, but i could still teach you how to do it properly,

i cant Tell you the number of times I've read a chapter of a book and give n a convincing lecture. On it 10 mins later.

i once flew the,Russia, to lecture on health safety in gold mining ,i subject i knew precisely nothing about, i read the book on the plane,

Yes. That was my point.

 

[drop bear]

And finally do we have the right to judge what a black belt in a different system means?

Yes.

Yes we do.