Martial arts shouldn't take years to learn.

[Tony Dismukes]

We also don't have fraternities or sororities something we do see on American television films and television and find immensely perplexing ( as in really weird actually, I mean why would you?)

It never made sense to me either. I couldn't see the attraction.

 

[Tarrycat]

Just as a passing acquaintance. I met him a number of times when I was training in the Bujinkan and he was still part of the organization. I wasn't a direct student, but I attended a bunch of his seminars. I also ran into him around town occasionally since we lived in the same area for a while.



Some truth, some irrelevant distractions, some puffery and exaggerations, some unfounded insinuations, some distortions, some important facts omitted. Steve is a master salesman and story teller, which allows him to present a misleading picture without necessarily telling a direct lie. (I'm not in a position to know personally whether there are any direct lies in that essay, but I can certainly recognize where the spin is happening.)


Lots of people do like Toshindo. I would hope you've heard good things about it from your instructor since that's what he's teaching you. Of those who don't like it, they probably fall into a couple of major camps:
Those who don't care for any of the X-kans and their derivatives.
Those who belong to the Bujinkan and are annoyed because they feel Hayes is misrepresenting his association with and his level of understanding of the Bujinkan arts.
What should matter to you is whether you like what you are learning, not what a bunch of people you don't know say about the art.


To do that, you'd need a qualified instructor from one of those organizations. If you don't have one in the area already, you'd need to spend a long time travelling to train with qualified teachers before you had the requisite knowledge to start your own school.


The big classical movements you are referring to are for training the student's understanding of concepts and principles. Actual application can be much smaller.

Wow, thank you for the information. I didn't know I was going to find so much of it on the Internet.

I'm quite stunned to say the least...

Yes, I'm going to have to find qualified instructors & all that, I just want to be the person who opens more doors to the art, basically. That's all.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Wow, thank you for the information. I didn't know I was going to find so much of it on the Internet.

I'm quite stunned to say the least...

Yes, I'm going to have to find qualified instructors & all that, I just want to be the person who opens more doors to the art, basically. That's all.

If you are enjoying your Toshindo study, you don't have to leave it just because you discovered that it's split off from its parent art. Most martial arts in the world today originally came about when someone went a different direction from their instructor.

 

[lklawson]

Sigh. I've always liked Steve Hayes well enough in person. He's a thoughtful and creative martial artist and teacher. However this particular screed illustrates something else he is good at: spin, misdirection, obfuscation, and self-aggrandizement. Those were always part of his nature, but it appears he's really cranked them up to 11 these days.

As many of you know, I live and work in the Dayton, Ohio area. Ground Zero for the Hayes system. It's nearly impossible to be part of the Martial Arts community here and not run across his students. So far the events have always been "dissatisfying."

At least he's not Ashida Kim.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tarrycat]

As many of you know, I live and work in the Dayton, Ohio area. Ground Zero for the Hayes system. It's nearly impossible to be part of the Martial Arts community here and not run across his students. So far the events have always been "dissatisfying."

At least he's not Ashida Kim.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

And did they mention WHY it was dissatisfying? . O.M.G.....can't believe this...

 

[lklawson]

And did they mention WHY it was dissatisfying? . O.M.G.....can't believe this...

They didn't seem to be dissatisfied with their training. Most of them seemed to like it.

I was dissatisfied with their interactions with me in regards to their training and their Martial Art.

I really don't feel like talking bad about them right now so I'll simply shorthand it to this: If I were interested in studying Ninjutsu, I would not choose a Hayes based school. Let's just leave it there, shall we?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[CB Jones]

At least he's not Ashida Kim.

You have something against the 27 Deadly techniques of the infamous poison fist technique?

 

[lklawson]

You have something against the 27 Deadly techniques of the infamous poison fist technique?

I have a friend who has trained in "ninjitsu." My friend was invited by "Ashida Kim" to come visit him at his compound. On a lark, he went.

The story my friend tells from there is quite entertaining, but it's not mine to tell.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tarrycat]

If you are enjoying your Toshindo study, you don't have to leave it just because you discovered that it's split off from its parent art. Most martial arts in the world today originally came about when someone went a different direction from their instructor.

Hearing all of the stories from more experienced people about Hayes, doesn't make me feel like he is in any way legitimate. The only legitimate people I view in the field of Ninjutsu, are the Japanese, incl

They didn't seem to be dissatisfied with their training. Most of them seemed to like it.

I was dissatisfied with their interactions with me in regards to their training and their Martial Art.

I really don't feel like talking bad about them right now so I'll simply shorthand it to this: If I were interested in studying Ninjutsu, I would not choose a Hayes based school. Let's just leave it there, shall we?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I misunderstood your message.

Me neither, pal... Me neither...

Unfortunately I don't have a choice, as the Bujinkan is roughly 40 mins away & I have an overprotective dad who won't allow me to drive that distance, because he doesn't want the guilt hanging over his head when something happens to me here in our wonderful, peaceful country. - I'm TWENTY FIVE by the way...

No problem. Oyasumi.

 

[ShortBridge]

There are always practical considerations to training. If you are benefiting from the training you are getting, keep going with it. Just keep context in the back of your mind.

Very few really experience d martial Artists I know followed a straight line through their training. Maybe this is just the phase you're in right now. Keep training.

 

[lklawson]

Unfortunately I don't have a choice, as the Bujinkan is roughly 40 mins away & I have an overprotective dad who won't allow me to drive that distance, because he doesn't want the guilt hanging over his head when something happens to me here in our wonderful, peaceful country. - I'm TWENTY FIVE by the way...

Your decisions as an adult or not-an-adult and your relationship with your father, including what you choose to do or what he can or can not allow for you, is, honestly, not something that we here on MT can comment on.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have a friend who has trained in "ninjitsu." My friend was invited by "Ashida Kim" to come visit him at his compound. On a lark, he went.

The story my friend tells from there is quite entertaining, but it's not mine to tell.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Oh, I would so accept that invitation. I'm fairly certain I could get people to buy me drinks after MA events with a story like that.

 

[CB Jones]

Oh, I would so accept that invitation.

Until you find out you have been invited to partake in the sequel to The Amorous Adventures of Ashida Kim

 

[lklawson]

Oh, I would so accept that invitation. I'm fairly certain I could get people to buy me drinks after MA events with a story like that.

hahaha..

He told me and some other friends over dinner. Thai food. I remember it quite distinctly. I had Peanut Chicken which I, literally, could not see. It was after hours at a Western Martial Arts seminar and I'd taken a knife class and my sparring partner for the class (a great guy) stuck his finger into my eye. That eye kinda swelled up, teared up, and I couldn't see anything out of it the rest of the day. Frustratingly, the other eye sympathetically teared up and I couldn't see anything out of it either. Everything was a giant colored smudge. Think of looking at a Monet through cheese cloth with your eyes squinted. ...in dim lighting.

But it was a great story.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Think of looking at a Monet through cheese cloth with your eyes squinted. ...in dim lighting.

Sometimes you have a gift for descriptive language, Kirk.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Hearing all of the stories from more experienced people about Hayes, doesn't make me feel like he is in any way legitimate.

It depends on what you mean by "legitimate."

Did Hayes train for many years in the Bujinkan?
Yes.
Was the vast majority of that time spent training and teaching in the U.S. without direct supervision and feedback from his instructors?
Yes.
Did he receive a relatively high rank (10th dan) in the Bujinkan from Hatsumi?
Yes.
Was Hatsumi in the habit of handing out ranks like candy to Westerners who came to visit Japan, so that he eventually had to raise the top belt rank in his system to 15th dan?
Yes.
Is Hayes no longer a member of the Bujinkan?
Yes.
Is the system he teaches primarily based on his personal interpretation and expression of what he learned in the Bujinkan?
Yes.
Have other practitioners split off from the Bujinkan to form their own organizations and teach their own interpretation of the X-kan arts?
Yes.
Are some of them widely considered legitimate instructors of those arts?
Yes.
Do lots of experienced martial artists consider Hayes to be skilled and knowledgeable?
Yes.
Are lots of other experienced martial artists much less impressed with him as a martial artist?
Yes.
Do some experienced practitioners in the Bujinkan, who spent much more time training in Japan under the direct supervision of Hatsumi and the shihans, consider Hayes's understanding of the art to be limited or off-base?
Yes.
Are they correct in that assessment?
Neither you nor I are qualified to say.
Are there serious doubts about the accuracy of the history presented by Hatsumi regarding 6 of the 9 arts which make up the Bujinkan?
Yes.
Are those arts and their derivatives, such as Toshindo, effective for modern day use regardless of their historical lineage?
Experienced martial artists will argue about such matters endlessly. I have my opinions, but you have no reason to trust my opinion over that of your instructor.

Bottom line - it's good to gather information from a variety of sources, but you have to make decisions based on your own experience and judgment, not because someone on a forum told you something.

The only legitimate people I view in the field of Ninjutsu, are the Japanese

There are non-Japanese who have spent decades and training in Japan.

 

[Tarrycat]

It depends on what you mean by "legitimate."

Did Hayes train for many years in the Bujinkan?
Yes.
Was the vast majority of that time spent training and teaching in the U.S. without direct supervision and feedback from his instructors?
Yes.
Did he receive a relatively high rank (10th dan) in the Bujinkan from Hatsumi?
Yes.
Was Hatsumi in the habit of handing out ranks like candy to Westerners who came to visit Japan, so that he eventually had to raise the top belt rank in his system to 15th dan?
Yes.
Is Hayes no longer a member of the Bujinkan?
Yes.
Is the system he teaches primarily based on his personal interpretation and expression of what he learned in the Bujinkan?
Yes.
Have other practitioners split off from the Bujinkan to form their own organizations and teach their own interpretation of the X-kan arts?
Yes.
Are some of them widely considered legitimate instructors of those arts?
Yes.
Do lots of experienced martial artists consider Hayes to be skilled and knowledgeable?
Yes.
Are lots of other experienced martial artists much less impressed with him as a martial artist?
Yes.
Do some experienced practitioners in the Bujinkan, who spent much more time training in Japan under the direct supervision of Hatsumi and the shihans, consider Hayes's understanding of the art to be limited or off-base?
Yes.
Are they correct in that assessment?
Neither you nor I are qualified to say.
Are there serious doubts about the accuracy of the history presented by Hatsumi regarding 6 of the 9 arts which make up the Bujinkan?
Yes.
Are those arts and their derivatives, such as Toshindo, effective for modern day use regardless of their historical lineage?
Experienced martial artists will argue about such matters endlessly. I have my opinions, but you have no reason to trust my opinion over that of your instructor.

Bottom line - it's good to gather information from a variety of sources, but you have to make decisions based on your own experience and judgment, not because someone on a forum told you something.


There are non-Japanese who have spent decades and training in Japan.

That line about me saying that the only legitimate people are the Japanese was not supposed to post, I typed it out & left it hanging. This is not the first time this site is doing this; I was still a bit uncertain to make such a bold statement, because that is not true, necessarily, since Westerners can also be legitimate, depending on their teachers, of course. It makes me look like a dingleberry.

Can someone tell me WHY this thing posts whenever I type something, & leave it hanging? (I'm using my mobile).

You make valid points & you are correct, we cannot disregard Mr. Hayes.

I am basing all of my knowledge on hearsay & on what I read.

Thank you for your insight.

 

[Tarrycat]

Your decisions as an adult or not-an-adult and your relationship with your father, including what you choose to do or what he can or can not allow for you, is, honestly, not something that we here on MT can comment on.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

No problem. Understood.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Unfortunately I don't have a choice, as the Bujinkan is roughly 40 mins away & I have an overprotective dad who won't allow me to drive that distance, because he doesn't want the guilt hanging over his head when something happens to me here in our wonderful, peaceful country. - I'm TWENTY FIVE by the way...

No problem. Oyasumi.

I would assume there is more to the story than just your age. You allow him to have that say over you, and as long as you do the age that you are does not matter. That doesn't mean it's a bad or a good thing that he has that say over you, it just is and you can either accept it or change it.

 

[Tarrycat]

I would assume there is more to the story than just your age. You allow him to have that say over you, and as long as you do the age that you are does not matter. That doesn't mean it's a bad or a good thing that he has that say over you, it just is and you can either accept it or change it.

On the verge of changing it. I agree with you 100%.

Life owes you nothing, you can either complain about your situation, or do something about it, which I am. I will deal with what I have at this moment in time.

I'm still studying, I'm busy with an MBA degree. As soon as I've completed it & I've started working, it will all pass. It will all be worth it.

Thank you*