Martial Arts Pins

[Danny T]

That and similar are the ones I've been taught. Anything involving 'lying' on a person or even kneeling doesn't work for me against larger people which frankly is most people. Our instructor teaches control and restraint techniques separately from self defence or MMA, and the techniques will vary depending on the needs of the students ie medical staff or security personnel. He will teach control and restraint for carers and mental health staff too which also differs in techniques and attitude needed. He's well qualified to do so though.

LEO's operate under different SOP's as do Medical security staff. Their rules of engagement and technique applications are quite different than a 'regular' citizen in a combative self-defense situation.

 

[Dwi Chugi]

Hello,

When I say pin, I mean less scarf hold (Which I would probably stay away from in a street defense) and more like the two video's posted above where you are locking someone's wrist or arm. However, I do love me a scarf hold when I am on the mat.

My argument is if I am in a street fight, I am not going to try to control them on the ground. There are no referee's in a street fight and lets face it, they most likely will not tap and go on there merry way.

I would say in a street fight, where I am with a loved one and someone attacks, I would first try to throw them so violently that they do not get up and I get away or strike them to where they either go to sleep or back off.

If it is someone I know, (the drunk friend or family member) then pins or locks are what I would aim for. When I worked security, I never threw or hit anyone. It was always a wrist or elbow lock and an escort to the front door where local LEO would give them a trespass notice. I worked on a Psych Unit as well where locks came in handy.

Thank you for all your reply's and the two videos.

 

[drop bear]

I had never heard that myself so I googled it and found this Nelson hold - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia on Wikipedia, where towards the bottom, in talking about the Full Nelson, it says the following:

"The full nelson (sometimes called a double nelson or a double shoulder lock) is done by performing half nelsons with both arms. In collegiate, high school, middle school/junior high school, and most other forms of amateur wrestling, the move is illegal. The holder is on the back side of the opponent, and has his or her hands extended upwards under the opponents armpits, holding the neck with a palm-to-palm grip or with interlaced fingers. By cranking the hands forward, pressure can be applied to the neck of the opponent. The usage of the full nelson in combat sports is very limited. It is a secure hold which can be used to control the opponent, but does not allow for finishing action, such as pinning the opponent, executing a reliable submission hold, or allowing for effective striking.[2] Because it can be used as a limited neck crank, it is considered dangerous in some grappling arts, and is banned, for instance, in amateur wrestling."

I bolded the pertinent portion.

As I said, I had never heard that. I seem to recall seeing it applied in the professional wrestling I used to watch on TV when I was a kid. I know in the Hapkido I learned, we had effective defenses against the full nelson.

depends how it is put on. If you let them get a neck crank it can be real trouble to get out of.

 

[Buka]

I was teaching class last night and a conversation was sparked about pinning your attacker after throwing them. I teach such pins because I used them when I worked security and they are part of the art that was shared with me.

I would not use them in a self-defense situation now. I would much rather throw and go or hit them and forget them, another words get out of the situation as fast as possible.

I think locking someone on the ground could get you hurt and unless I am a LEO or security, why take the chance. The only other situation would be a loved one out of control. Then I would so I would not hurt them with a throw or strike.

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts....pretty much the same as yours.

 

[Brian King]

Depending on the situation, pins can be used while de-escalating the situation. Pin's can also be used effectively to search and disarm prior to de-escalation. Pin's and the resistance to or escape from can also serve as justification of upping the use of force. Not good for all situations but good for some. Your mileage may vary.

Regards
Brian King

 

[Transk53]

Depending on the situation, pins can be used while de-escalating the situation. Pin's can also be used effectively to search and disarm prior to de-escalation. Pin's and the resistance to or escape from can also serve as justification of upping the use of force. Not good for all situations but good for some. Your mileage may vary.

Regards
Brian King

Yes. From my viewpoint mainly, but good post.

 

[Raymond]

My personal take is that pinning techniques to the nature of scarf hold or north/south position are very important to a well rounded martial artists. There can be many times you need to control or restrain someone that you do not want to use a joint lock or joint break on such as someone with a physical or mental handicap.

I know the traditional Hapkido practitioner will likely view a "pin" as something like this

And those are very strong restraining techniques due to the pain the of the lock, I think that pinning techniques we may view as "more sportive" are important as well because they offer full dominating control without injury and if you do a competant level of grappling in your curriculum you will be able to seamlessly transition from various pins without ever losing control of the battle.

I also think that a martial art should grow and evolve to address the combative needs of the current time's culture of fighting. With many brazilian jiujitsu white and blue belts out there, and high school wrestlers, just being aware of pinning techniques like this are also important to self defense. I'm not a military general, but I think that one military will always want to understand the type of weaponry their enemies may use against them. Martial art shouldn't be any different. Also, I don't think pinning techniques like scarf hold or side mount violate the principals and values of Hapkido. But I am also very thankful and interested in the Hapkido traditionalists that prefer to practice the art as closely to what Dojunim Choi taught, and I unfortunately have no way to know if he taught any pins that be also found commonly in Judo or various forms of jiujitsu.

 

[drop bear]

Easier to punch them in the face from scarf hold

 

[Raymond]

Easier to punch them in the face from scarf hold

Do you mean for the top person or the bottom person? I personally would probably not punch from scarf hold top as I would not want to risk giving up position.

 

[drop bear]

Do you mean for the top person or the bottom person? I personally would probably not punch from scarf hold top as I would not want to risk giving up position.

from the top position. And it is pretty low risk of them getting out.

So you basically get free punching.

 

[Raymond]

Suh Bok Sup, Choi's first student in Korea, was a black belt in Judo and Judo has pinning techniques (one method of winning Judo competitions even). I wonder how much, if any, pinning techniques such as scarf hold he taught when instructing Hapkido.