Martial arts philosophy?

[Fungus]

It's an optimization with many constraints for me. Sure MMA is conceptually appealing to me as it throws in allowed techniques, especially grappling and throws. But it violates one constraint, and that is that while like to learn about fighting systems, I do not want to do it at the expense of risking picking up too much damange, especially to my head. So kyokushin seems like a nice balance for me. I can eat some pain, but risking long term damage, no.

My feeling is that what is lacking the MOST from kyokushing in self defense is not head shots (I feel I could quite easily adapt to that in real situation), but combining the striking and kicking art is more tricksy as I know from wrestling that the optimal very low stance is quite difference from the normal karate stance; your arms are also more prepared to grapple than to block or punhc. That would be good to train, and probably quite a challenge!

 

[Fungus]

I didn't engage in this for self-protection. I never felt insecure or threatened in general and I don't goto places where brawls are frequent. I find it more of a challenge to improve my fighting skills in hypothetical scenario, and to for a change - use some other part of my body except my brain, for something. I am not a sports guy, I hate to excercise etc! so it is a mystery to myself why I enjoy the tought kyokushing training It is itself a new insight and a philosophical thing to try to unify my mental focus with my body control. Something that I am not used to, before this.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I’ve taken it several levels further and practise a TMA that it entirely useless but I enjoy it’s other, many wonderful characteristics.

I think you realize that you're overstating the tongue-in-cheek "uselessness" of your TMA to make a point. I've found that iaido infuses me with the Samurai spirit and helps me practice commitment in the attack. The sharpness of the blade requires awareness and discipline. And some techniques can be adapted to a long stick.

If trained with a martial spirit any TMA can develop attributes useful in combat. No need to take constant heavy shots and train like a professional fighter (though I admire those that do) to develop helpful self-defense skills for our everyday world.

 

[Gyakuto]

I think you realize that you're overstating the tongue-in-cheek "uselessness" of your TMA to make a point. I've found that iaido infuses me with the Samurai spirit and helps me practice commitment in the attack.

’Samurai spirit’? What on earth is that? Sounds like ‘woo woo‘ to me.

The sharpness of the blade requires awareness and discipline. And some techniques can be adapted to a long stick.

I carry neither a sword or a long stick. It’s not allowed.

If trained with a martial spirit any TMA can develop attributes useful in combat.

I think this is tenuous and nebulous at best.

No need to take constant heavy shots and train like a professional fighter (though I admire those that do) to develop helpful self-defense skills for our everyday world.

Iaido is 65.87% less effective than gymnastics for self-defence. Gymnasts are stronger, more flexible and athletic so I’d fancy their chances far beyond that of a person who can do nice sword kata.

But I still love Iaido but unlike a mother with an ugly baby, I can see it for what it is.

 

[Fungus]

Iaido is 65.87% less effective than gymnastics for self-defence.

Are all those your significant digits are thanks to your TMA training?

 

[isshinryuronin]

so I’d fancy their chances far beyond that of a person who can do nice sword kata.

I don't do sword kata "nice" - I do it "rough" with intent.

If trained with a martial spirit any TMA can develop attributes useful in combat

How one trains can be as important as what one trains. The "how" affects the "what's" effectiveness.

 

[Gyakuto]

Are all those your significant digits are thanks to your TMA training?

Scientific training. Precision is the last bastion of the science.

 

[Gyakuto]

I don't do sword kata "nice" - I do it "rough" with intent.

Poor Mrs isshinryuronin…

How one trains can be as important as what one trains. The "how" affects the "what's" effectiveness.

The what’s of when’s whereabouts…no wait.. the how’s and the means…the what’s and the…OK, I’ll take your word for it.

 

[Flying Crane]

I believe most traditional martial arts aren’t anywhere nearly as effective as boxing and MMA but they are beautiful and because I live in a prodominantly peaceful society with very low rates of violent crime (outside London and Glasgow) , that reduction in effectiveness and increase in beauty can become my personal priority.

I am curious about your hands-on experience with training in traditional martial arts, other than sword. Your description above is not similar to my experience.

 

[Gyakuto]

I am curious about your hands-on experience with training in traditional martial arts, other than sword. Your description above is not similar to my experience.

I hold a 3rd Dan in Wado Ryu Karate which is characterised with lots of kumite and emphasis on kicking. I haven’t practised for many years, though. I entered competitions and inter-dojo sparring.

I had my eyes opened to the reality of TMA effectiveness when a couple of boxer used to train with us. They could out pace us (huge stamina), could take our blows with barely a sign of discomfort and when they hit us…ouch….they really hurt us.

 

[Flying Crane]

I hold a 3rd Dan in Wado Ryu Karate which is characterised with lots of kumite and emphasis on kicking. I haven’t practised for many years, though. I entered competitions and inter-dojo sparring.

I had my eyes opened to the reality of TMA effectiveness when a couple of boxer used to train with us. They could out pace us (huge stamina), could take our blows with barely a sign of discomfort and when they hit us…ouch….they really hurt us.

What you describe is not a trait of boxing compared to Wado-Ryu. Instead, I suggest it is a result of the intensity of the training and the purpose for which you are doing it. If you are interested in heavy- contact competitions, you need to train with an appropriate intensity level for that goal. I would say that specific goal is more often found in boxing than it is in traditional martial arts, but any style can be trained for that purpose. If that is not your goal, there is little need to train with that intensity. Then it becomes a comparison between individuals, and the skill that they hold in the method that they train. It is not a direct comparison of styles. If you have a youthful athlete who is training for high level competition, of course he will likely defeat someone who is not training with the same intensity, regardless of style.

Boxing excels at what it is designed for, within that context, and is designed to build functional skills quickly so that a person can have a competitive career while they are still young. And I am sure it can be very useful outside of that context as well although there are issues that I suspect could be a liability outside the boxing ring. I am not convinced that it is objectively better. The physical education that I have received from my training in traditional arts is very insightful and, I feel, has tremendous potential for anyone willing to work hard at it.

I am not suggesting that one is better than another. But I am suggesting that one is not inferior to another. It really depends on the quality of the instruction, the natural talents and inclinations of the individual, and the willingness to work hard in the development of skills. Regardless of the style one trains.

 

[Gyakuto]

A very good point, well made.

 

[Fungus]

If you are interested in heavy- contact competitions, you need to train with an appropriate intensity level for that goal. I would say that specific goal is more often found in boxing than it is in traditional martial arts, but any style can be trained for that purpose.

Makes sense.

About high-contact is what I learned alot from only 2 years on kyokushin, I agree with what you say, any style, karate, kung fu or whatever can easily be trained with fullcontact (wether to the head or not), and what I definitely learned from only two years is...

HOW much does certain attacks hurt, what is "only" painful, and that is potentially dangerous. Once I learned that, it' s much easier to be push, as I know what I don't need to worry about.

I also learned that how I can take alot more strikes to to body and legs and be fine with it. In fact trying to block or evade every attack is requires much more stamina, than eating half. And that some level of pain is not dangerous at all, nor should I allow it to get me to loose focus.

How much power I need to put behind my techniques to really affect a conditioned opponent. And which techniques that are useless for "high power" against a conditioning body. Especially ot the body I learned that it takes more than one initially thing. Early on I was afraid to damange my opponents, but as I learned how much I could take, I also learned that I can give back more for someone in my weight class.

None of these things does per see have anything with how we do our kihon or kata or fighting style per see, but I think it has made me more effective in fighting, even if I have a looong way to go to reach my goal.

 

[Buka]

I trained in a boxing gym for a few years while working up through the ranks in Karate. The owner of the boxing gym knew one of us well, so he let us kick the bags when we wanted. Which really pissed off the boxers. A lot. But we all trained hard and didn’t complain while they beat the crap out of us.

We finally got accepted. Then, one of the better boxers said, “Hey, Karate guy, if you want to spar using that karate stuff please do, I’ll show you that it doesn’t work.”

What’s a guy to do? Can’t say no. So I said “sure.”
He thought I was going to kick. But all I did was sweep his feet from under him. Every time he moved I swept him with one sweep or another. Man, he was so angry.

Then they hated us all over again. The owner of the gym laughed his butt off. He loved it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

all I did was sweep his feet from under him. Every time he moved I swept him with one sweep or another. Man, he was so angry.

I sparred with a boxer once. I kept stepping on his knee so he could not shift weight onto his leading leg to punch me. He didn't have solution and he was very angry at the end.

 

[Steve]

I am curious about your hands-on experience with training in traditional martial arts, other than sword. Your description above is not similar to my experience.

Aren’t you the one who said this?

I've been training since 1984. I have never had a real fight. I'm pretty good at talking things down, and when that doesn't work, it doesn't hurt my pride to walk, or even run, away.

And there is nothing even remotely religious about it, for me.

you keep writing posts about your experience with what “works.” And dismissing the opinions of others based on your experience. Every time you do, I wonder what the heck you’re talking about, as you have by your own admission, no experience.