Martial Arts Magic

[Steve]

While I can emphasize with your sentiment, "so be it" is not exactly equivalent to "I feel sorry for you".

I was referring to his original statement: "To say that Ki doesn't exist is the same. Mind you, I am aware that there are MA who don't believe in it either as well, to include some here on MT. I am sorry for them."

I was clarifying that I respect anyone's beliefs, and in no way meant to suggest that oftheherd is wrong. I don't believe in ki or chi, but I'm also willing to accept that he has experience I don't. If you believe in chi or ki, knock yourself out. If you believe you've experienced, great. Saying, "I am aware that there are MA who don't believe in it either as well, to include some here on MT. I am sorry for them." That's a little pretentious.

Sorry if there was any confusion. Also, just to add, I don't see this as a big deal. It's no biggie. I just see ki or chi as being very much like a religious belief. You believe in chi? Awesome. Have fun. Believe in God? Great. Go for it. No reason to feel sorry for me, though.

 

[WC_lun]

Chi exsist, but too many make too much of it. If you are in a fighting situation and you start trying to manipulate chi to protect yourself....well it is not gonna end well. Train in the things that makes good fighters and when/if you need it, the chi stuff will be there. Concentrate on it too much and you lose everything else that makes an effective fighter. If you are a person that doesn't believe in it, no big deal. I'm much more intersted in whether you have good body structure, can triangulate your power, can flow from one thing to another, etc.

Part of the problem with chi/ki is you have so many charlatans that try to make martial arts mystical to take advantage of the gullible. The chi/ki thing works into that just too damn well for people that want the super "I win" button or don't want to put in the blood, sweat, and pain it takes to become a proficient martial artist.

 

[wushuguy]

Definitely not when we're talking about combat...

But it's a great button to aim during grappling, ground and pound, on or off the ropes, on or off the mats...

 

[Josh Oakley]

I was referring to his original statement: "To say that Ki doesn't exist is the same. Mind you, I am aware that there are MA who don't believe in it either as well, to include some here on MT. I am sorry for them." I was clarifying that I respect anyone's beliefs, and in no way meant to suggest that oftheherd is wrong. I don't believe in ki or chi, but I'm also willing to accept that he has experience I don't. If you believe in chi or ki, knock yourself out. If you believe you've experienced, great. Saying, "I am aware that there are MA who don't believe in it either as well, to include some here on MT. I am sorry for them." That's a little pretentious. Sorry if there was any confusion. Also, just to add, I don't see this as a big deal. It's no biggie. I just see ki or chi as being very much like a religious belief. You believe in chi? Awesome. Have fun. Believe in God? Great. Go for it. No reason to feel sorry for me, though.

Ah, Gotcha. Makes more sense now. And I concur. There are SOOOOOO many better reasons to feel sorry for us than that!

 

[Josh Oakley]

SUPER I WIN BUTTON: the large red one that fired the nuke, orders me a pizza, turns on a good movie, and sends my wife in for cuddle time!

 

[Buka]

Helluva thread. Reminds me what fascinated me about the arts when I was a kid.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Sometimes what I refer to as magic, or like magic, or magical in the martial arts is more a high level of skill seen at a time when it was awe inspiring. Over the last 30 years of being in the martial arts I have seen some magic from some high level instructors and even once took part in something that I can't describe as anything but KI related.

A couple of high level Aikijujitsu instructors once taught at a seminar, coming from a karate/TKD background seeing these guys seemed magical as they effortlessly tossed these ukes around by shrugging their shoulders doing this and doing that. Now they could have said it was KI and at the time 20+ years ago I might have believed it; because I couldn't explain it, I couldn't do it, I could see it but it didn't make any sense to me. If they at this high level said it was KI then being the trusting student I probably would have believed it; but they didn't. The one instructor would go through a lengthy explanation of how this wasn't KI but rather physics and body manipulation both his and his uke's and so on. Then in slow motion he would do the technique and explain it. Even with that I couldn't (nor anyone else there for that matter unless they were Aiki type stylist could) even come close to doing them. However after that I went to an Aikido demonstration with an instructor from Japan and the American instructor was telling the whole audience about KI and such and they then proceeded to do a similar demo at normal speeds. Again it looked like magic. But was it KI or a high skill level after decades of training?

Once at Thai boxing seminar (in 1985) with master Chi, I attended it with a friend who was a beginner and really tight. He was trying real hard and was probably nervous when Master Chi called him up had him turn around and face the opposite direction and had some guys stand behind him and then he told him to relax as he did some hand manipulations from 3-4 yards away. A couple of times my friend was starting to fall backwards as Chi pulled his hand back (mind you he was about 10 feet away and behind him so he couldn't see Master Chi) but my friend would pull back and right himself. Finally after enough coaching (as in relax go with it) he went over backwards. Now after that master Chi asked "Anyone else tight?" My hand shot right up.

Knowing what to expect I went up and I stood there. I started to feel a stream of "energy" (only way to describe it) coming down from my head to the small of the back and then one rise up from the heels of the feet up my legs to the small of my back where they came together and then seemed to leave my body out as I felt pulled as if by a string backwards. Weird to say the least. Now I could write this off as well I imagined this because I had a visual representation of the event by watching my friend prior to my turn; however the real weirdness happened later that evening when I went back to the school with the owner of the school. In walked a student of his who was on patrol and saw the lights on and was checking it out. The instructor asked if he could do an experiment with her and he had her stand about 20 feet away and face the opposite direction, then he started doing the same type of motions with his hands but he actually pulled her shoulder back. this freaked her out and she pulled back then he did the other shoulder, now she freaked out again. The only "coaching" was along the lines of "Relax we are not anywhere near you". But she was very uneasy about her shoulder being pulled back (her shoulder twisted as he moved his hands back as if he was pulling her). Now she wasn't there for the seminar so she didn't see Chi's demonstration of the technique, she walked in at the school because (I forget why) we went back to the school. He gave her no real instructions to pre-frame her mind and she was facing the opposite direction so she could see his hand actions.

About 10 years ago I went to a PP type seminar and during it I saw a "No Touch knockout" but here the student knocked out was a student of the instructor who was teaching. From 20 feet away or so the instructor had the student face him and close his eyes, then he went and did some hand manipulations and the student was knocked out after a period of time. I've seen video of a different instructor who was there at the same seminar do the same thing.

From these experiences (and others) I seen stuff I can't explain but in reality what use is it?
In the first example there is use because to get there takes a high level of training, a lot of time to commit to training, and ultimately he was able to put it to use as soon as someone grabbed him. So it worked for self defense. But there were simpler ways to gain a relase from being grabbed that don't take the same amount of time to learn.

Master Chi's demo helped my friend or at least me relax, but it was never taught to have have anything to do with fighting or self defense. That's what we were learning Thai Boxing for! The instructor that night demonstrate somewhat the same abilities but how could you use that skill when the person still can control their own body (as the woman showed when she pulled her shoulders back or my friend when he prevented himself from falling backwards)?

The fact that someone could be knocked out after a few minutes from 20 feet away, again that helps the average person how?

I once asked GM Ernesto Presas about hitting pressure points, he said way try and hit a point the size of a quarter when I can smash the arm with a stick, or cut it off with a bolo (I'm paraphrasing here folks), that sounds good to me.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Sounds interesting. However all of this can still be explained by power of suggestion, group dynamics, the tendancy for those in a group to attain cohesion with group norms, and the mind's inability to differenciate between the imagined with the real.

 

[oftheherd1]

Well, my comment seems to have stirred up quite a reaction. I made the comment partly facetiously, but partly seriously. Regardless, it was not my intent to anger anyone. It was my intent to get people to thinking and discussing. For those I seem to have angered, I apologize.

It is interesting to read everyone's comments. I appreciate the input. I guess I should talk about my belief/experience with ki. I have never seen nor used punches from 20 feet. I would have doubts about that myself. I would be willing to accept it, but would be suspicious without a proof I could accept. WC_lun had some good comments. So did The Boar Man. To me, ki isn't the be all end all. It is a supplement to your total tool set. It allows one to use the abilities he already has, but better. It allows more speed, more strength, movement without thinking.

I wonder how many would want to have a concrete brick fall on their hand? Still, how many would believe the breaking of several concrete bricks? Why not, you have seen it, yes? But if a concrete brick fell on your hand, would you be surprised at seeing broken bones? Part of breaking can be explained by healing micro-fractures making bone tougher. But not all. There has to be something else at work. I believe it is ki. Not all MA break boards or bricks. Those of you who do, consider how it would be if a brick fell on you hand or foot, versus the fact you can break one. How do explain your ability to break something that can break you?

Again, apologies for any insults perceived. Insult wasn't what I intended. Stimulation of thought was. Apparently I handled that poorly.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Uh... Physics, maybe? Look, guy, I've broken stuff too. I have even done the "dim mak" break where you break the bottom brick with no damage to the top brick. But there isn't necessarily metaphysical about it. Why proffer a metaphysical explanation when a physical, naturalistic explanation can be made. Occam's razor: given two explanations of the same event, the one that makes the least assumptions is the more likely.

 

[oftheherd1]

Uh... Physics, maybe? Look, guy, I've broken stuff too. I have even done the "dim mak" break where you break the bottom brick with no damage to the top brick. But there isn't necessarily metaphysical about it. Why proffer a metaphysical explanation when a physical, naturalistic explanation can be made. Occam's razor: given two explanations of the same event, the one that makes the least assumptions is the more likely.

I would appreciate your explanation of what you understand to be the physics of what you did. It may not always be ki, but I just don't see how a martial artist can totally discount ki either. But obviously, that is just me.

EDIT: I should explain that I only broke a board once, when I was taking TKD. In the Hapkido I learned, that wasn't done. But I still believe that many things we do as MA, ki is involved. Again, that is obviously just me.

 

[Nomad]

I have broken bricks, including some very decent-sized stacks of them, and don't believe that there's anything mystical going on whatsoever. Yes, you need to have solid concentration and focus to do it properly, but it's really a simple matter of transfer of energy into (and through) the target. A brick falling on my hand is unlikely to fall on the correct part(s) of my hand for breaking without getting broken, though if I were ready for it, I don't think it would be a big deal.

Considering the frequency that some bricks (especially the longer, thinner ones) break when taking them out of the car (probably 1 in 20 if you're careful), it's not a huge feat. Bricks are strong (they can hold up whole buildings, for instance), but fairly brittle to impact. To me, breaking is more a test of the focus and commitment of the breaker (and possibly the holders if wood) than anything else... if you're off target, distracted, or hesitate, you're likely not only not to break, but to be hurt in the process.

It's a cool trick, but like most of the really cool tricks, there's nothing mystical about it (though it may look that way to someone who doesn't understand the tricks).

 

[Josh Oakley]

I would appreciate your explanation of what you understand to be the physics of what you did. It may not always be ki, but I just don't see how a martial artist can totally discount ki either. But obviously, that is just me.

EDIT: I should explain that I only broke a board once, when I was taking TKD. In the Hapkido I learned, that wasn't done. But I still believe that many things we do as MA, ki is involved. Again, that is obviously just me.

I'll save the physics explanation for someone who is versed enough in physics to give a proper explanation.

 

[Carol]

I'll save the physics explanation for someone who is versed enough in physics to give a proper explanation.

I'm an engineer, not a physicist, but I'll give it a go. You have a stack of boards, supported on the ends but not the middle. Lets say, for sake of illustration, the supports are cinderblocks. The striker will hit the top board and send the force downwards. The board that sees the most flexion is the board closest to the cinderblock supports. This is the bottom board which will bend until the structure breaks. Once the lower board breaks, the stress is relieved, putting the pressure on the next-lower board. The exceptions to this would be if the breaking materials have a spacer in between, or if the materials have a center score to make them easier to break.

This can be reproduced by anyone regardless of martial arts training:
Take four solid pieces of styrofoam, of equal size (cut up a cheapo styrofoam cooler if you like). Stack them on two hard supports like you were supporting boards for a break. Apply downward force to the top styrofoam "board". This can be done by pressing down on the top "board". It can also be done by putting a rock, a brick, a barbell, or some other small but hefty object on the top center. Watch how the individual boards bend, and eventually break.

I would appreciate your explanation of what you understand to be the physics of what you did. It may not always be ki, but I just don't see how a martial artist can totally discount ki either. But obviously, that is just me.

EDIT: I should explain that I only broke a board once, when I was taking TKD. In the Hapkido I learned, that wasn't done. But I still believe that many things we do as MA, ki is involved. Again, that is obviously just me.

There is definitely more than just the toughening of human tissue.

There are also the variables in the breaking materials. No two boards, for example, are exactly alike, and the ease in which they (or bricks, or blocks) can be broken depends on their moisture content, hence the concern many honest competitors have about unscrupulous competitors drying boards in advance. Ice can't be dried but it can be scored to break more easily. Ice has a crystaline structure that is cubical (3 dimensions) not planar (2 dimensions). When ice breaks, it shatters in many directions. It only breaks on a straight line if the structure has been physically interfered with, or has natural imperfections.

Here is a break of scored ice:
[yt]ZDz7CkZ3_io[/yt]

Here is a break of ice (with spacers) that is likely not scored:
[yt]EEkhDaBxdgk[/yt]

An article I found with a quick google search that explains the physics of breaking in a bit more detail.
http://tkdtutor.com/TOPICS/Breaking/Materials/Materials-03.htm

The article mentions speed. To be a bit persnickety, its more than just speed, its the vectors of velocity (speed, with a directional component) and acceleration (velocity over time). F=MA. Force equals Mass times Acceleration. I stress this not to pick a nit, but because the directional component is just as important as the speed. Mass is a constant, but this is also why a serious break requires the practitioner to put their body weight in to a strike instead of merely the weight of a limb. This is where training comes in, improving not just speed but the acceleration vector for a clean break.

 

[oftheherd1]

I'm an engineer, not a physicist, but I'll give it a go. You have a stack of boards, supported on the ends but not the middle. Lets say, for sake of illustration, the supports are cinderblocks. The striker will hit the top board and send the force downwards. The board that sees the most flexion is the board closest to the cinderblock supports. This is the bottom board which will bend until the structure breaks. Once the lower board breaks, the stress is relieved, putting the pressure on the next-lower board. The exceptions to this would be if the breaking materials have a spacer in between, or if the materials have a center score to make them easier to break.

This can be reproduced by anyone regardless of martial arts training:
Take four solid pieces of styrofoam, of equal size (cut up a cheapo styrofoam cooler if you like). Stack them on two hard supports like you were supporting boards for a break. Apply downward force to the top styrofoam "board". This can be done by pressing down on the top "board". It can also be done by putting a rock, a brick, a barbell, or some other small but hefty object on the top center. Watch how the individual boards bend, and eventually break.




There is definitely more than just the toughening of human tissue.

There are also the variables in the breaking materials. No two boards, for example, are exactly alike, and the ease in which they (or bricks, or blocks) can be broken depends on their moisture content, hence the concern many honest competitors have about unscrupulous competitors drying boards in advance. Ice can't be dried but it can be scored to break more easily. Ice has a crystaline structure that is cubical (3 dimensions) not planar (2 dimensions). When ice breaks, it shatters in many directions. It only breaks on a straight line if the structure has been physically interfered with, or has natural imperfections.

...

An article I found with a quick google search that explains the physics of breaking in a bit more detail.
http://tkdtutor.com/TOPICS/Breaking/Materials/Materials-03.htm

The article mentions speed. To be a bit persnickety, its more than just speed, its the vectors of velocity (speed, with a directional component) and acceleration (velocity over time). F=MA. Force equals Mass times Acceleration. I stress this not to pick a nit, but because the directional component is just as important as the speed. This is where training comes in, improving not just speed but the acceleration vector for a clean break.

I am neither a physicist nor an engineer. But I think I understand what you are saying.

Please next address what prevents the hand, elbow, or foot from breaking.

 

[Carol]

I am neither a physicist nor an engineer. But I think I understand what you are saying.

Please next address what prevents the hand, elbow, or foot from breaking.

The force required to break the body part is greater than the force required to break the material. This is why breakers use porous materials, and not dense materials such as rebar.

 

[jks9199]

Also -- more often than some will admit, the hand, foot or elbow DOES break. I don't do a lot of breaking; bluntly, it's expensive, and doesn't really show or do much for my training. (There are other ways to harden and prepare your weapons for fighting.) The only "mind over matter" in most breaking is simply the willpower deliver a committed strike against a solid material.

 

[Nomad]

I am neither a physicist nor an engineer. But I think I understand what you are saying.

Please next address what prevents the hand, elbow, or foot from breaking.

The hand, elbow or foot doesn't break because you are using a relatively hard body part to do the breaking. Bones and flesh are also not brittle (like bricks), so the tendency to shatter is reduced (but bruising is very common).

Breaking is most dangerous when it does not work, because by Newton's Laws, the bricks "hit back" with force roughly equal to that used on them. If the bricks break, much of that energy continues in the same trajectory (or is dispersed somewhat by the bricks shattering), so less is projected back into your limbs.

If breaking boards required the development of your chi, then it's unlikely that people could be "taught" to break boards during a half-hour "empowerment" seminar (which they have), or as a TV promotion (one of my Sensei had a local news reporter break a board on the air after 2-3 minutes of coaching... of course, the key parts are that he picked the wood (not scored or dried, but certainly not the stoutest board available), and that he was the holder for the break). Cool trick.