Martial Arts Magic

[Nomad]

Nice article on Bullshido that I hadn't seen before.

The many various forms of bullshido have long been criticized by legitimate martial arts practitioners, and dismissed merely as marketing claims intended to attract students to a particular school where one of these supposed masters teaches.Bullshido practitioners shoot back that such naysayers are merely crying sour grapes because they have not yet learned the secret techniques, or achieved the special level.

IMO, removing the mysticism from martial arts is a worthy goal, though it would obviously be detrimental to some who survive and thrive on it.

 

[Steve]

Nice article on Bullshido that I hadn't seen before.

IMO, removing the mysticism from martial arts is a worthy goal, though it would obviously be detrimental to some who survive and thrive on it.

Great article. Thanks for sharing.

Mostly well written, but I don't agree with this part:

In boxing they speak of punching someone on the temple as "the button": Hit someone just so, on the button, for an immediate knockout. This is simply a concussion caused by a sudden shock to the head, crushing the brain against the inside of the skull. Contrary to popular belief, the temple is no better or worse a target for concussion than any other point on the skull (except the jaw, which can move and thus absorbs part of the energy of the blow). Aside from concussion, the temple is a dangerous place to be struck, but not because there are any special nerves there. The skull at that point is quite thin and fragile, and right under it is the middle meningeal artery. If it's ruptured, the hemorrhaging is very dangerous, and quite likely fatal. No touch or blow to the temple that does not break the skull or cause a concussion is likely to be especially harmful.

While I'm not sure about the temple, "the button" I've seen too many times to discount is on the jaw. And it's seen over and over again in MMA. Along with the cartoon style knockout.

 

[Cyriacus]

Great article. Thanks for sharing.

Mostly well written, but I don't agree with this part: While I'm not sure about the temple, "the button" I've seen too many times to discount is on the jaw. And it's seen over and over again in MMA. Along with the cartoon style knockout.

Also, take into account Bare Knuckle Fighting.
A Bare Knuckle to the Temple can be quite Devastating.

 

[jks9199]

Didn't somebody post up an article not too long ago suggesting that, in the bare knuckle days, "the button" was actually the solar plexus?

 

[Steve]

I don't know about the article, but taking a punch to the solar plexus would definitely suck.

 

[oftheherd1]

Didn't somebody post up an article not too long ago suggesting that, in the bare knuckle days, "the button" was actually the solar plexus?

Possible, I never heard of it though. I'm with stevebjj that the button was on the point of the jaw. I've never heard a medical explanation of that, but always suspected it had to do with the leverage provided snapping the head too quickly for the brain to easily follow. The resulting coup and counter-coup then causing unconsciousness.

 

[oaktree]

I thought the button was the chin. Hence the expression Take it on the chin.

 

[oftheherd1]

Having read the whole article, it seems there is some misinformation on the part of the writer. To say pressure points that can disable don't exist simply shows ignorance on the writer's part. To say that Ki doesn't exist is the same. Mind you, I am aware that there are MA who don't believe in it either as well, to include some here on MT. I am sorry for them.

But Dem Mak? Well, I have been taught death blows, but Dem Mak isn't one of them. Nor did my GM ever tell me it was or wasn't true. We never discussed it.

 

[Steve]

Pressure points? I think most people would agree that there are nerve clusters which can cause pretty severe reactions. It's in how practical or reliable getting to those pressure points can be where the debate comes in.

Ki or chi... well... yeah. That's getting into some marginal stuff. It's okay, though. Don't feel sorry for me.

 

[jks9199]

Didn't somebody post up an article not too long ago suggesting that, in the bare knuckle days, "the button" was actually the solar plexus?

Here's the post I was thinking about: What is "The Mark" in historic boxing

 

[joshbrown]

And here all along I thought "the button" was a clitoris.....

 

[Josh Oakley]

Mild tangent, one of the lessons I do with students is I teach them how to perform the "no hit punch". I give a lengthy explanation about chi and how "you can take these principles and use them to harness the chi energy around and within you and actually PROJECT it into another person!" Then I demonstrate it by having someong stand in front of me, feet together, hands at their sides, do some really cool looking two chi hand movements and throw my arms at them while breathing out forcefully. Almost every time, they go flying backwards. Then while everyone is standing amazed I get another student and do it to them. Now whole people are awestruck by the impossible awesomeness of my anime-like superpowers, I ask them "now why did that work? More importantly, if I hadn't gone through that lengthy explanation at the beginning, would it have worked?" Now comes the moment of doubt. They stand there confused. "Of course it wouldn't, because I made it all up! I can't hit people without touching them, though that would be awesome! And you believed me because you WANTED it to be true, and it was reinforced by those around you. The point of this lesson is to think for yourselves, do your own research, and above all to QUESTION everything. Don't automatically affirm even that which your own eyes are telling you, because we are all gullible to a point. Every single one of us." It's not a verbatim quote, but you get the idea.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Possible, I never heard of it though. I'm with stevebjj that the button was on the point of the jaw. I've never heard a medical explanation of that, but always suspected it had to do with the leverage provided snapping the head too quickly for the brain to easily follow. The resulting coup and counter-coup then causing unconsciousness.

Medically it's pretty straight forward. Striking the point of the chin pushes the jaw straight back. In doing so, the TMJ dislocates, at least partly. As it's pushed backwards, it compresses the structures behind it.

One of those structures is the carotid artery. Occluding it, even briefly, can lead to unconciousness. At the very least, the person gets quite dizzy and will find it difficult or impossible to continue to defend themselves.

The vagus nerve also runs through this area. Amoung other things, the vagus nerve controls (to a greater or lesser degree) diaphragmatic breathing, heart rate and blood pressure. Impacts to this nerve also have a negative affect on your ability to think.

Strikes from the side of the jaw or head cause violent sideways movement of the head, and unconciousness results from the brain rattling around inside the skull. If it twists the neck, as in a strike the the side of the chin, the twisting of the neck can, to some degree, compress the vascular and neuronal structures in the same manner as the straight punch, albeit only on one side.

It's worthwhile to keep in mind that arteries are muscular and contract in much the same way as the heart. Strikes that impact the nerves controlling this contraction, especially those in the carotids, can cause the artery to spasm, shutting off, or greatly reducing the flow of blood to the brain. This is a very effective way to render someone unconcious with minimal impact. It does, however, require a great deal of precision, since if the strike is not at exactly the right point AND exactly the right angle, it won't cause the spasm.

 

[Nomad]

And here all along I thought "the button" was a clitoris.....

Definitely not when we're talking about combat...

 

[Cyriacus]

Definitely not when we're talking about combat...

You sure?
Ive seen a female get hit there, and fall down in pain.


​Lets not let this particular discussion go on for too long, Gentry

 

[David43515]

Don`t know where I fall on this one. I`ve always explained 98% of what I can do with simple physics.......but there`s that 2% of what I can do...plus alot of stuff I can`t do but I`ve seen others do: generating heat from their hands or belly(to the point where it`s painful to touch their abdomen), breaking stacks of bricks with no spacers by just a light slap (and I know the bricks aren`t rigged,scratched or baked because I helped buy them at Home Depot and took them to the demo in the trunk of my car) and a few down-right weird things. The Myth Busters might be able to explain it, but I can`t.

 

[oftheherd1]

Pressure points? I think most people would agree that there are nerve clusters which can cause pretty severe reactions. It's in how practical or reliable getting to those pressure points can be where the debate comes in.

Ki or chi... well... yeah. That's getting into some marginal stuff. It's okay, though. Don't feel sorry for me.

There are arts that train use of pressure points that will put a person down and keep them down for a while.

As to Ki, I have experienced it. If you haven't, or didn't recognize it, so be it.

 

[Steve]

There are arts that train use of pressure points that will put a person down and keep them down for a while.

Again, I have no doubt that they exist. I am a little more skeptical that hitting them in a self defense situation is reliable.

As to Ki, I have experienced it. If you haven't, or didn't recognize it, so be it.

My comment had less to do with whether it exists or not than the patronizing comment that you feel sorry for people who don't believe in it. You're welcome to your beliefs. But save the sanctimony, please. As I said before, don't feel sorry for me. Maybe my midichlorian count just isn't high enough.

 

[Nomad]

Don`t know where I fall on this one. I`ve always explained 98% of what I can do with simple physics.......but there`s that 2% of what I can do...plus alot of stuff I can`t do but I`ve seen others do: generating heat from their hands or belly(to the point where it`s painful to touch their abdomen), breaking stacks of bricks with no spacers by just a light slap (and I know the bricks aren`t rigged,scratched or baked because I helped buy them at Home Depot and took them to the demo in the trunk of my car) and a few down-right weird things. The Myth Busters might be able to explain it, but I can`t.

While I agree with this statement in general, I'd like to point out that simply because you can't explain the physics behind a phenomenon does not mean there's mysticism (or ki, or whatever you want to call it) involved. All it means is that you can't explain it or don't yet know the math...

The burden of proof, IMHO, lies firmly on those who insist that such mystical phenomena exist (whether ki, ESP, acupuncture points, no touch knockouts, psychic powers or whatever) to demonstrate it in a scientifically meaningful way. To date, all such attempts have failed, usually resoundingly.

The fact that the no-touch knockouts, for instance, consistently fail when used against skeptics and other more physical martial artists is proof positive that those practitioners, at least, are frauds. Here's another website with some awesome video proof of these techniques. Very entertaining.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Again, I have no doubt that they exist. I am a little more skeptical that hitting them in a self defense situation is reliable.My comment had less to do with whether it exists or not than the patronizing comment that you feel sorry for people who don't believe in it. You're welcome to your beliefs. But save the sanctimony, please. As I said before, don't feel sorry for me. Maybe my midichlorian count just isn't high enough.

While I can emphasize with your sentiment, "so be it" is not exactly equivalent to "I feel sorry for you".