Martial Arts in Fantasy/Sci-Fi Part 2 - Legendary Swords

[pdg]

if it's strong enough to either shatter or piece dragon scales

That's not how to slay a dragon - doesn't everyone know you get it to rear up and then attack the relatively unprotected armpit?

 

[Anarax]

That's not how to slay a dragon - doesn't everyone know you get it to rear up and then attack the relatively unprotected armpit?

Depends on the type of dragon, you could also go for the vulnerable area around/below the throat. However; I'm sure the dragon won't just stand there waiting for you to kill it, thus the sword must be strong enough to block attacks as well.

 

[skribs]

Sword vs armor isn't exactly how the movies and tv make it out to be. Very rarely are broadswords used to pierce right through armor, though half-swording(link) was heavily used against armored opponents. Exploiting armor's weaknesses and openings were the main focus when fighting an armored opponent.

I assume people also generally miss the open areas and still hit the armor anyway, even if they're not trying to. Same with the other person's sword or shield.

Not exactly, but your touched on important points. Dulling is caused by the edge becoming misaligned and thus won't cut. Think of a papercut, cutting yourself with a crisp piece of paper is very easy to do because the the paper's edge is aligned. However; cutting yourself with wrinkled paper is next to impossible because the edge isn't aligned. The same dynamics apply with blades and swords. There are however instances where you do need to put a new edge on a blade and that does involve removing some metal to make it razor sharp.

I thought it was just wear on the edge. I have a box cutter that's been through it's fair share of boxes, and the blade is still straight but it doesn't cut like it used to.

 

[drop bear]

I just google images hundred year old sword. And got thousand year old swords in reasonable knick.

 

[drop bear]

Depends on the type of dragon, you could also go for the vulnerable area around/below the throat. However; I'm sure the dragon won't just stand there waiting for you to kill it, thus the sword must be strong enough to block attacks as well.

Ok so I hunted down best ways to kill a dragon and got this.

10 Epic Ways To Slay A Dragon - Listverse

The explosive sheep was the most fun I think.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok so I hunted down best ways to kill a dragon and got this.

10 Epic Ways To Slay A Dragon - Listverse

The explosive sheep was the most fun I think.

So you're saying he should have a 700 year old sheep?

 

[AngryHobbit]

Why isn't there a "too informative" rating?

Because there is no such thing as "too informative". Like wizards, who always arrive at exactly the right time, information sought out and provided by me is always in exactly the right amount.

 

[AngryHobbit]

Sting will always remain my favorite mythical sword.

As a hobbit, I approve of this message!

 

[AngryHobbit]

Something being forgotten (or more possibly, overlooked)...

A sword is steel, yes.

But no...

It's unlikely a legendary sword would simply be forged from a lump of random steel - we're not talking a wall hanger.

It will be multiple types of steels, folded and forged to get the properties desired. It'll have a hard edge with a much more maleable spine.

Heating may not have as much effect as at first assumed, something like HSS for instance can be heated to glowing red and it'll pretty much maintain it's properties whether you air cool or use a different medium (oil or water). I can grind a lathe tool from HSS until the tip is red, dunk it in water or leave it in air and it'll still cut other steels.

Carbon absorption may or may not happen at temperatures less than making the steel alloy floopy (technical term). Ditto stuff like hydrogen embrittlement. You certainly couldn't hang onto the hilt at the temperatures required.

Heat treatment takes time too, tempering from a hardened state can sometimes be multiple hours.

So yeah, theoretically it's possible, kinda.

Oh, that's right - I forgot about the hilt! If one specializes in dragons, he or she would need some serious heat-proof gauntlets. Also, let's not forget about the natural stress point where the hilt is attached to the sword. That could get wonky (technical term) if super-heated.

 

[AngryHobbit]

Every time I read "Magic Runes" my inner reading voice pronounces this way

For some reason this made me think of this.

 

[AngryHobbit]

Ok so I hunted down best ways to kill a dragon and got this.

10 Epic Ways To Slay A Dragon - Listverse

The explosive sheep was the most fun I think.

Number 10 appears to be a bizarre combination of Joseph and His Amazing Technicolor Dream Coat and the true story of Karl the Brave, King of Burgundy, who stuck a big honking diamond into his helmet, chose the position facing the sun, blinding and killing his opponent in single combat.

Number 8 - forget the dagger ("It's not the size, mate, it's how you use it!"). How the hell did she make it to the shore with all that stuff? Hauling the dagger, the statue, and the dragon, while wearing ceremonial robes? Have you SEEN how big and heavy those robes are? Lifeguard certification level - advanced.

Number 6 - I think something got confused in translation (as it often happens). A man asks a woman for her girdle to help tame his... dragon? Uh-huh...

Number 4 - dancing aside, it's a little bit helpful to be a god.

Number 3 - the reason they chained Andromeda to the cliff naked is to spare the dragon the trouble of having to unwrap his lunch. Duh!

Number 2 - so, it's not REALLY seafoam. It's having the god of destruction handy.

Number 1 - YEAH! Exploding sheep. Let's do this!

 

[pdg]

Oh, that's right - I forgot about the hilt! If one specializes in dragons, he or she would need some serious heat-proof gauntlets. Also, let's not forget about the natural stress point where the hilt is attached to the sword. That could get wonky (technical term) if super-heated.

If it gets heated to the point of floopy and wonky it's almost a worst case scenario.

Add in a bit of flonkiness and some wibble and you're guaranteed a bad day...

 

[Flying Crane]

Oh, that's right - I forgot about the hilt! If one specializes in dragons, he or she would need some serious heat-proof gauntlets. Also, let's not forget about the natural stress point where the hilt is attached to the sword. That could get wonky (technical term) if super-heated.

I’m not sure I understand what you are getting at. The blade and tang ought to be of single-piece construction, and the tang should be quite robust. The pieces of the hilt, meaning grip, guard, and pommel are fitted to the tang and can be replaced as components if need be, and depending on how they are secured on.

Your comment sounds to me like you envision the blade as one piece, without a tang, and the hilt is a separate piece that is bolted on, or something...

 

[AngryHobbit]

If it gets heated to the point of floopy and wonky it's almost a worst case scenario.

Add in a bit of flonkiness and some wibble and you're guaranteed a bad day...

Not only some wibble but quite possibly also some wobble! That would be really tragic.

 

[AngryHobbit]

I’m not sure I understand what you are getting at. The blade and tang ought to be of single-piece construction, and the tang should be quite robust. The pieces of the hilt, meaning grip, guard, and pommel are fitted to the tang and can be replaced as components if need be, and depending on how they are secured on.

Your comment sounds to me like you envision the blade as one piece, without a tang, and the hilt is a separate piece that is bolted on, or something...

With blade and tang being a single piece, you still need to attach the hilt somehow. And any point, at which parts meet, no matter how they are fitted, will create a stress point.

Here is a good basic image - this is the simplest scenario, in which the hilt is all one piece. So, in this case, from the thermal and chemical integrity standpoint, we have a stress area where the cross guard meets the blade. Even if the tang extends to the pommel, there will be some cantilever effect at that exit point. Also, even in this very basic construction, some type of rivet is used to secure the hilt to the tang. These two create natural stress points.

Basically, anyplace you have two different pieces of anything come together, a vulnerability is created. If we consider any tool, weapon, or mechanism, what are the areas where it gets worn out the most? The edges. The joints. The fasteners. And if we are back to dealing with dragons, the super-heating of the blade and the heat transfer from the blade along the tang to the hilt might not only damage the hand holding the blade but also result in unpredictable chemical and electrical effects between the two materials. It would be interesting to obtain an infrared image of a sword in action, while being exposed to a dragon flame and observe where we have heat and stress concentration.

 

[Flying Crane]

With blade and tang being a single piece, you still need to attach the hilt somehow. And any point, at which parts meet, no matter how they are fitted, will create a stress point.

Here is a good basic image - this is the simplest scenario, in which the hilt is all one piece. So, in this case, from the thermal and chemical integrity standpoint, we have a stress area where the cross guard meets the blade. Even if the tang extends to the pommel, there will be some cantilever effect at that exit point. Also, even in this very basic construction, some type of rivet is used to secure the hilt to the tang. These two create natural stress points.

Basically, anyplace you have two different pieces of anything come together, a vulnerability is created. If we consider any tool, weapon, or mechanism, what are the areas where it gets worn out the most? The edges. The joints. The fasteners. And if we are back to dealing with dragons, the super-heating of the blade and the heat transfer from the blade along the tang to the hilt might not only damage the hand holding the blade but also result in unpredictable chemical and electrical effects between the two materials. It would be interesting to obtain an infrared image of a sword in action, while being exposed to a dragon flame and observe where we have heat and stress concentration.

Gotcha, that jives with my experience as well.

 

[AngryHobbit]

Gotcha, that jives with my experience as well.

We had this Strength of Materials professor back in Ukraine - Professor Bardzilovski. He was a total douche - especially with female students. Great scientist though. Wrote totally brilliant problems on the subject - eventually published a book of them. One of the problems was about an I-beam set this deep into a wall, with two different scenarios for how the weight was applied to it (one - hanging off the end, another - with weight evenly distributed along the exposed length of the beam). Electrical current is run through the beam. The question was - how much further the beam would flex in both weight application scenarios under the impact of the electrical current. Sadistic but brilliant. If memory serves, the solution took up something like six or seven handwritten pages.

He would have LOVED the problem of a sword, its hilt, and the fire-breathing dragon.

 

[Flying Crane]

We had this Strength of Materials professor back in Ukraine - Professor Bardzilovski. He was a total douche - especially with female students. Great scientist though. Wrote totally brilliant problems on the subject - eventually published a book of them. One of the problems was about an I-beam set this deep into a wall, with two different scenarios for how the weight was applied to it (one - hanging off the end, another - with weight evenly distributed along the exposed length of the beam). Electrical current is run through the beam. The question was - how much further the beam would flex in both weight application scenarios under the impact of the electrical current. Sadistic but brilliant. If memory serves, the solution took up something like six or seven handwritten pages.

He would have LOVED the problem of a sword, its hilt, and the fire-breathing dragon.

This is all well above my pay grade, I am afraid.

 

[drop bear]

So you're saying he should have a 700 year old sheep?

That would make the story more interesting than a sword.

Dragon slaying swords are pretty common.

 

[Anarax]

I assume people also generally miss the open areas and still hit the armor anyway, even if they're not trying to. Same with the other person's sword or shield.

The swords are still forged to be durable enough to strike other swords and armor, but the overall tactic isn't "thrust through any part of the armor". There are entire sword styles that are built around targeting the weak and open areas of armor.

I thought it was just wear on the edge. I have a box cutter that's been through it's fair share of boxes, and the blade is still straight but it doesn't cut like it used to.

Blade misalignment isn't always visible to the naked eye. Box cutters are usually cheap and aren't made with the same longevity as knives and swords. Hence is why the box cutter blades are usually removable so you can replace them entirely.