Martial Arts in Fantasy/Sci-Fi Part 2 - Legendary Swords

[skribs]

The fictional scenario: Johnny Dragonhunter has the Flamebreaker, a sword that's been in his family for 700 years. The Flamebreaker has been used to slay tens of thousands of dragons over its lifetime. It was an honor for Johnny to receive this family heirloom as his birthright when he, the eldest son of his father, turned 18. With the sword in his hand, he knows he will not fail in a dragon hunt. The others in his hunting party have their morale bolstered with this legendary sword in their midst.

Here's my question, and I wasn't sure if this should go into OT (since we're talking about fantasy) or in the weapon's forum, because the question comes from fantasy but is based on real world physics:

How does a functional sword stay functional this long? There are thousands of stories out there where the hero has a sword that's been in the family for generations, used in hundreds or thousands of battles, and yet the sword is still battle ready.

My understanding of swords is that as they hit armor and bone, they chip and dull, just like any other edge. When they chip and dull, the only way to restore their edge is to sharpen it, and a whetstone will only remove material, so after several battles a sword will become lighter, thinner, and weaker, to the point it will eventually become useless and need to be replaced.

So how would Johnny Dragonhunter's sword have served his family for several hundred years? What would need to happen in order for the sword to stay in fighting shape? What should Johnny do to keep his sword in shape, or how should he repair the sword if it is past the point where a sharpening stone would fix the problem, but he doesn't want to take away from the legendary status of the weapon?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The fictional scenario: Johnny Dragonhunter has the Flamebreaker, a sword that's been in his family for 700 years. The Flamebreaker has been used to slay tens of thousands of dragons over its lifetime. It was an honor for Johnny to receive this family heirloom as his birthright when he, the eldest son of his father, turned 18. With the sword in his hand, he knows he will not fail in a dragon hunt. The others in his hunting party have their morale bolstered with this legendary sword in their midst.

Here's my question, and I wasn't sure if this should go into OT (since we're talking about fantasy) or in the weapon's forum, because the question comes from fantasy but is based on real world physics:

How does a functional sword stay functional this long? There are thousands of stories out there where the hero has a sword that's been in the family for generations, used in hundreds or thousands of battles, and yet the sword is still battle ready.

My understanding of swords is that as they hit armor and bone, they chip and dull, just like any other edge. When they chip and dull, the only way to restore their edge is to sharpen it, and a whetstone will only remove material, so after several battles a sword will become lighter, thinner, and weaker, to the point it will eventually become useless and need to be replaced.

So how would Johnny Dragonhunter's sword have served his family for several hundred years? What would need to happen in order for the sword to stay in fighting shape? What should Johnny do to keep his sword in shape, or how should he repair the sword if it is past the point where a sharpening stone would fix the problem, but he doesn't want to take away from the legendary status of the weapon?

Working off some pretty thin knowledge here, so ignore anything here that the weapon experts contradict when they post.

If the sword got too damaged to use, I think the only choice is to re-forge it and add material. As for keeping it in good shape, remember that the sword is just the blade if it's made in the traditional Japanese style. The grip/hilt, bindings, and guard (tsuba, IIRC) are all replaceable. He would likely keep it oiled and might occasionally polish it. When not in use, perhaps it would be kept in an oiled cloth.

Of course, since it's a fantasy story, some simple expediencies can be taken. If magic enters this story, then there might be runic carvings on the sword that protect it. Perhaps master blacksmiths work with magic that allows them to repair a sword without re-forging. If you use either of these, be sure to temper them (no pun intended) with difficulty. It bugs me when a sword simply cannot be made dull because of a spell cast 1,000 years ago or is entirely unbreakable, or when a broken sword is repaired in a day with a quick and simple spell. All of that takes too much struggle out of the story and makes the world seem superficial.

One other note: if the sword is 700 years old and has killed tens of thousands of dragons, that means it has been used to kill 30+ dragons per year, on average (30*700=21,000). That seems excessive. Unless dragons are simple kills and quite plentiful, even a dragon a year seems excessive.

 

[AngryHobbit]

One other note: if the sword is 700 years old and has killed tens of thousands of dragons, that means it has been used to kill 30+ dragons per year, on average (30*700=21,000). That seems excessive. Unless dragons are simple kills and quite plentiful, even a dragon a year seems excessive.

30+ dragons a year, let's make a nice, convenient number 36. So, that's 6 dragons a month. A dragon killed every five days. That's how dragons end up on the endangered species list!

 

[skribs]

Working off some pretty thin knowledge here, so ignore anything here that the weapon experts contradict when they post.

If the sword got too damaged to use, I think the only choice is to re-forge it and add material. As for keeping it in good shape, remember that the sword is just the blade if it's made in the traditional Japanese style. The grip/hilt, bindings, and guard (tsuba, IIRC) are all replaceable. He would likely keep it oiled and might occasionally polish it. When not in use, perhaps it would be kept in an oiled cloth.

Of course, since it's a fantasy story, some simple expediencies can be taken. If magic enters this story, then there might be runic carvings on the sword that protect it. Perhaps master blacksmiths work with magic that allows them to repair a sword without re-forging. If you use either of these, be sure to temper them (no pun intended) with difficulty. It bugs me when a sword simply cannot be made dull because of a spell cast 1,000 years ago or is entirely unbreakable, or when a broken sword is repaired in a day with a quick and simple spell. All of that takes too much struggle out of the story and makes the world seem superficial.

One other note: if the sword is 700 years old and has killed tens of thousands of dragons, that means it has been used to kill 30+ dragons per year, on average (30*700=21,000). That seems excessive. Unless dragons are simple kills and quite plentiful, even a dragon a year seems excessive.

This was just an example to show that the sword has been heavily used. And maybe a lot of those dragons were in one battle. Plus, it's a legendary sword! This wasn't a story I'm writing, just something I wrote to set the "legendary sword, hundreds of years old, been used in battle regularly" criteria.

As to your point about magic, I was trying to avoid that. I mean, that's easy enough to write in. And I don't think that an unbreakable sword takes too much struggle out of the story...there's still the whole battle vs. evil.

 

[skribs]

To add:

I am thinking of magic in the other way. That the history of the blade makes it stronger, whether the blacksmith who initially forged it imbued it with properties to make the sword or the swordsman better in combat, or that the more a blade becomes legendary, the more power it holds, and that reforging the sword would dull that history.

 

[AngryHobbit]

The fictional scenario: Johnny Dragonhunter has the Flamebreaker, a sword that's been in his family for 700 years. The Flamebreaker has been used to slay tens of thousands of dragons over its lifetime. It was an honor for Johnny to receive this family heirloom as his birthright when he, the eldest son of his father, turned 18. With the sword in his hand, he knows he will not fail in a dragon hunt. The others in his hunting party have their morale bolstered with this legendary sword in their midst.

Here's my question, and I wasn't sure if this should go into OT (since we're talking about fantasy) or in the weapon's forum, because the question comes from fantasy but is based on real world physics:

How does a functional sword stay functional this long? There are thousands of stories out there where the hero has a sword that's been in the family for generations, used in hundreds or thousands of battles, and yet the sword is still battle ready.

My understanding of swords is that as they hit armor and bone, they chip and dull, just like any other edge. When they chip and dull, the only way to restore their edge is to sharpen it, and a whetstone will only remove material, so after several battles a sword will become lighter, thinner, and weaker, to the point it will eventually become useless and need to be replaced.

So how would Johnny Dragonhunter's sword have served his family for several hundred years? What would need to happen in order for the sword to stay in fighting shape? What should Johnny do to keep his sword in shape, or how should he repair the sword if it is past the point where a sharpening stone would fix the problem, but he doesn't want to take away from the legendary status of the weapon?

Since we are specifically talking about dragon hunting, it would stand to reason the sword has been exposed to great blasts of extreme heat. Having studied thermodynamics, heat transfer, fluid dynamics, and transport phenomenon, my concern would be the cumulative impact of heat and thermal expansion on the sword's structure.

While heating and cooling in the manufacturing process, carried out in appropriate quantities by a skilled sword maker, serves to temper and improve the weapon, repeated heating and cooling without any consistency (I assume the dragons do not have any sort of regulation mechanism for their firebreathing temperature, do they?), combined with the slicing and dicing associated with dragon slaughtering, is bound to result in stress points all along the sword's blade.

Considering dragon scales are reputed to be exceedingly tough, there would be some dents on the sword's working surfaces - microscopic at first, but certain to expand and create areas of weakness due to repeated heating and cooling when trying to struggle through and possibly deflect the dragon flames.

If we assume the material the sword is made of is some type of steel - an alloy of iron, carbon, and other additives, depending on the desired properties - repeated heating will cause the material balance within the alloy to shift, more carbon will be absorbed, making the overall structure more fragile.

@gpseymour , am I overthinking this?

 

[skribs]

Since we are specifically talking about dragon hunting, it would stand to reason the sword has been exposed to great blasts of extreme heat. Having studied thermodynamics, heat transfer, fluid dynamics, and transport phenomenon, my concern would be the cumulative impact of heat and thermal expansion on the sword's structure.

While heating and cooling in the manufacturing process, carried out in appropriate quantities by a skilled sword maker, serves to temper and improve the weapon, repeated heating and cooling without any consistency (I assume the dragons do not have any sort of regulation mechanism for their firebreathing temperature, do they?), combined with the slicing and dicing associated with dragon slaughtering, is bound to result in stress points all along the sword's blade.

Considering dragon scales are reputed to be exceedingly tough, there would be some dents on the sword's working surfaces - microscopic at first, but certain to expand and create areas of weakness due to repeated heating and cooling when trying to struggle through and possibly deflect the dragon flames.

If we assume the material the sword is made of is some type of steel - an alloy of iron, carbon, and other additives, depending on the desired properties - repeated heating will cause the material balance within the alloy to shift, more carbon will be absorbed, making the overall structure more fragile.

@gpseymour , am I overthinking this?

You are WAY overthinking this....but keep going. How would one keep the blade in fighting shape against those stressors?

Also, don't be bogged down by my description of it being a dragon-hunting blade. Like I said, my criteria is basically that its really old and battleworn. It could be the Orcslayer, it could be the Undead Deadener, it could just be a world in which humans fight humans (apparently those exist, too). It's more about the repair of the sword than specifically a dragon-hunter's sword.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This was just an example to show that the sword has been heavily used. And maybe a lot of those dragons were in one battle. Plus, it's a legendary sword! This wasn't a story I'm writing, just something I wrote to set the "legendary sword, hundreds of years old, been used in battle regularly" criteria.

I wasn't sure if that was actually part of a story, or just to set up the question. Either way, I like @AngryHobbit 's response.

As to your point about magic, I was trying to avoid that. I mean, that's easy enough to write in. And I don't think that an unbreakable sword takes too much struggle out of the story...there's still the whole battle vs. evil.

If it's to survive 700 years and hundreds of battles, you might need magic. Combine it with what would help a sword survive generations and a dozen battles (which is what I'm hoping the weapon experts will post), and you have a reasonable (for that world) solution. That way the magic isn't "the answer" - it just enhances what can already be done. The reason I don't like magic that solves the problem easily is that for consistency you'd have to extend that to other parts of the world, and it would simply solve too many problems. Characters tend to become unrelatable if all the small problems are solved. Good vs. evil is the big problem, but it's always made more poignant when it involves characters with problems we relate to. That's why Harry Potter had tests to deal with.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

@gpseymour , am I overthinking this?

Yes, of course you are. That's what engineers do.

However, it's a good point. One of the ways magic can get involved is in solving the heating/cooling problem. That's the kind of detail that makes a world seem more real to me. Robert Jordan gets into some of those kinds of details in the forging of the Darksword.

 

[AngryHobbit]

You are WAY overthinking this....but keep going. How would one keep the blade in fighting shape against those stressors?

Also, don't be bogged down by my description of it being a dragon-hunting blade. Like I said, my criteria is basically that its really old and battleworn. It could be the Orcslayer, it could be the Undead Deadener, it could just be a world in which humans fight humans (apparently those exist, too). It's more about the repair of the sword than specifically a dragon-hunter's sword.

Well.... you could reforge it in the fires of Mount Doom every 400 - 500 years or so. Provided the original sword maker left behind his exactly formula and process - because the alloy will need tinkering with, to reestablish the correct proportions of all the components.

Heat is easily the most dangerous stressor when metals are involved. Orcslayer - not a big deal, just keep it honed. And you probably want a heavier blade for orc slaying - since orcs are thickset with big necks and hard skulls. So, you want something with good chopping ability. In Alexander Kuprin's novella The Duel there is a lovely description of practicing a cross-the-body chop, executed by an expert swordsman with a good blade, on a wet clay dummy. Good times!

Undead Deadener - also not a problem, as long as the slime the undead produce when you cut their heads off is not acidic. If it is - then you have chemical contamination and weakening, with similar risks to thermal damages. You'll want to consider some type of coating to resist the crud.

The cool thing is - heat also increases the metal's electrical resistance... so... you could stick a sword in front of a fire-breathing dragon, then shove it into the middle of a high-voltage circuit, and cause a really spectacular short-circuit.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You are WAY overthinking this....but keep going. How would one keep the blade in fighting shape against those stressors?

Also, don't be bogged down by my description of it being a dragon-hunting blade. Like I said, my criteria is basically that its really old and battleworn. It could be the Orcslayer, it could be the Undead Deadener, it could just be a world in which humans fight humans (apparently those exist, too). It's more about the repair of the sword than specifically a dragon-hunter's sword.

Okay, so the stresses are more prosaic with all those other uses, so maybe that is the place to start (and remember the strength-of-materials lesson should you decide to include dragons). Now you're talking about just the dents. I'm not sure about the absorption of additional carbon - that is probably driven by the heating cycle. @AngryHobbit?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

@skribs, you started this thread looking for expert information on sword maintenance and repair. Instead, you got a couple of F&SF nerds who are getting all into the story of the sword.

Now you know who you're dealing with.

 

[skribs]

@skribs, you started this thread looking for expert information on sword maintenance and repair. Instead, you got a couple of F&SF nerds who are getting all into the story of the sword.

Now you know who you're dealing with.

Yeah I didn't think this through.

Maybe I *should* have made this thread in the weapons forums

 

[AngryHobbit]

Okay, so the stresses are more prosaic with all those other uses, so maybe that is the place to start (and remember the strength-of-materials lesson should you decide to include dragons). Now you're talking about just the dents. I'm not sure about the absorption of additional carbon - that is probably driven by the heating cycle. @AngryHobbit?

Here is a pretty good article on various heat effects when it comes to metal. It's basic but gives you a decent idea. In order to repair a seriously heat-damaged sword, it would have to go through all of the heat treatment methods described in the article - annealing, normalizing, hardening, and tempering.

How Heating Metal Affects Its Properties | Metal Supermarkets - Steel, Aluminum, Stainless, Hot-Rolled, Cold-Rolled, Alloy, Carbon, Galvanized, Brass, Bronze, Copper

 

[AngryHobbit]

Yeah I didn't think this through.

Maybe I *should* have made this thread in the weapons forums

What? I don't see any issue.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here is a pretty good article on various heat effects when it comes to metal. It's basic but gives you a decent idea. In order to repair a seriously heat-damaged sword, it would have to go through all of the heat treatment methods described in the article - annealing, normalizing, hardening, and tempering.

How Heating Metal Affects Its Properties | Metal Supermarkets - Steel, Aluminum, Stainless, Hot-Rolled, Cold-Rolled, Alloy, Carbon, Galvanized, Brass, Bronze, Copper

Why isn't there a "too informative" rating?

 

[Buka]

Sting will always remain my favorite mythical sword.

 

[pdg]

Something being forgotten (or more possibly, overlooked)...

A sword is steel, yes.

But no...

It's unlikely a legendary sword would simply be forged from a lump of random steel - we're not talking a wall hanger.

It will be multiple types of steels, folded and forged to get the properties desired. It'll have a hard edge with a much more maleable spine.

Heating may not have as much effect as at first assumed, something like HSS for instance can be heated to glowing red and it'll pretty much maintain it's properties whether you air cool or use a different medium (oil or water). I can grind a lathe tool from HSS until the tip is red, dunk it in water or leave it in air and it'll still cut other steels.

Carbon absorption may or may not happen at temperatures less than making the steel alloy floopy (technical term). Ditto stuff like hydrogen embrittlement. You certainly couldn't hang onto the hilt at the temperatures required.

Heat treatment takes time too, tempering from a hardened state can sometimes be multiple hours.

So yeah, theoretically it's possible, kinda.

 

[Anarax]

How does a functional sword stay functional this long?

Well, take your comment below into consideration

The Flamebreaker has been used to slay tens of thousands of dragons over its lifetime.

There are essentially two ways we can approach this. The metallurgical approach or the Fantasy, but I think it's a bit of both. From a metallurgical standpoint if it's strong enough to either shatter or piece dragon scales, it must be made of an extremely durable metal/alloy. There is also the option of reforging the blade anew to restore it. From a more fantasy standpoint it can be enchanted with magical runes or some other form of magic or it was forged from a metal with naturally occurring magical elements.

My understanding of swords is that as they hit armor and bone, they chip and dull, just like any other edge. When they chip and dull, the only way to restore their edge is to sharpen it, and a whetstone will only remove material, so after several battles a sword will become lighter, thinner, and weaker, to the point it will eventually become useless and need to be replaced.

Not exactly, but your touched on important points. Dulling is caused by the edge becoming misaligned and thus won't cut. Think of a papercut, cutting yourself with a crisp piece of paper is very easy to do because the the paper's edge is aligned. However; cutting yourself with wrinkled paper is next to impossible because the edge isn't aligned. The same dynamics apply with blades and swords. There are however instances where you do need to put a new edge on a blade and that does involve removing some metal to make it razor sharp.

Sword vs armor isn't exactly how the movies and tv make it out to be. Very rarely are broadswords used to pierce right through armor, though half-swording(link) was heavily used against armored opponents. Exploiting armor's weaknesses and openings were the main focus when fighting an armored opponent.

What would need to happen in order for the sword to stay in fighting shape?

Depending on what it's made of, protecting it from the elements, coating it in some type of protective coating(oil, museum wax, etc) performing maintenance to the pommel, hilt and hand guard.

 

[Anarax]

Every time I read "Magic Runes" my inner reading voice pronounces this way