Martial Arts fanaticals

[Xue Sheng]

And sometimes the answer can be as simple as, "you want proof? Well given what a jerk you have been, satisfying you isn't on my list of priorities. So, no."

I couldn't find the emoticon who shrugs his shoulders, so this one will need to suffice.

I tend to like the "your request has not produced a desire in me to answer" kind of thing.... I do, by the way, feel your pain......

 

[Steve]

Hey guys, good to meet you.

I don't want to take too much of your time. I just wanted to ask if you had heard the good news about our Lord and Savior Helio Gracie.

Oh, you're busy right now? That's okay. I can come back later. In the meantime, let me just leave you with some literature - here's a copy of the Gracie Diet and a DVD of Gracie JiuJitsu in Action. I'll talk to you soon. Have a blessed day now!

LOL.... can I interest you in a DVD copy of Ginastica Natural?

 

[Jenna]

Sadly, this is true even within certain styles. Wing Chun is famous for its lineage wars. Want proof? Go look at all the warnings the admins had to give us on the Wing Chun board here. I will admit that I was guilty of it myself: someone disagreed with me on the purpose of Chi Sao, which seemed really far out there (to me), so I said, "What the hell kind of Wing Chun are YOU studying?" I regret it, as it is an example of the same kind of close-minded behavior that I despise so much and fight against.

But I do try, and I succeed more than I fail. I wish it were easier for more people to agree to disagree.

Think about it this way: Person A and Person B have two different religions. Person A thinks their religion is better so, when they hear that Person B thinks THEIRS is better, they take it as a personal insult. They bludgeon Person B over the head with why their religion is better. Person B gets offended and winds up hating Person A.

Why can't we just ask each other questions? Why can't we say "that's interesting, what draws you to that religion?"

Substitute religion with other words: music, books, movies, martial arts, philosophy...whatever. All I know is this: if I ASK instead of judge, then I learn something.

Thomas Carlyle wrote, "Every man is my superior in that I may learn from him." I try to live by that. I try to not act superior to anyone. Everyone has had a different life experience than me, so the odds are they know something I don't.

Actually, let me rephrase that: many of us have similar life experiences. We have more in common than we have different. However, we all live inside our own minds and filter things through our own lenses. Let's say @Jenna gets cut off in traffic on the way to work. I know how that would make me feel, so I can imagine how it would make her feel...but I cannot really know because she has her OWN lens.

Ask. Listen. Accept the answer as is without arguing how YOUR answer to the same question is better. Gain knowledge.

Why is that so hard?

And why am I rambling on like this? LOL

Martial artists are cross sectional sample of the general population then maybe it is unsurprising if there exist among martial artists all the same closed-mindedness that exist in the most ignorant and dogmatic followers of religions..

Like rhetorically who ever respond well to some one self-righteously inform them -replete with "evidence"- that they are following the "wrong" path? Nobody respond well to that.. is the worst kind of pontification..

Is exactly like you say.. I would say to the martial art missionary who approach me in public place.. I say.. like before you condescend to persuade me to the more "correct" way, understand this is MY way and it is already correct for me, by my own personal singular standard. It may appear I have a job to do that require a hammer. However, that may be simply a misperception based on limited exposure to the world, of what I am even attempting to do.. I am not offended by that misperception if you are not offended by my refusal to take up your offer of a hammer to do the job I am doing

and even you are rambling.. like the song say ramble on

 

[Xue Sheng]

Jenna, I completely agree with you that there need not be a single standard to measure martial arts.

I do think, however, there should be standards within each art, that are well defined and measurable, and also consistent with the measurement of progress. Whatever those standards might be, everyone should know what they are, and how their progress toward achieving those standards will be determined.

It is nice that you feel that way, however 6000 years of martial arts evolution in China has failed to reach this magic agreed upon standard, and the same can be said for many martial arts of many cultures that have also been around hundreds or even thousands of years. So that can I then assume that since they do not have this standard that you then consider them all questionable?

 

[Flying Crane]

I tend to like the "your request has not produced a desire in me to answer" kind of thing.... I do, by the way, feel your pain......

Sometimes, if people won't share something with you, well...there might be reasons...

 

[Jenna]

Jenna, I completely agree with you that there need not be a single standard to measure martial arts.

I do think, however, there should be standards within each art, that are well defined and measurable, and also consistent with the measurement of progress. Whatever those standards might be, everyone should know what they are, and how their progress toward achieving those standards will be determined.

Standards facilitate dissemination.. A standard of judging -as distinct from a syllabus etc- is not necessarily useful or even helpful in assisting any one martial artist to practice their own personal way beyond symbolically marking progress, and that is only within one system..

Across disparate and discrete martial arts (or any other) systems with little common ground beyond the high level description, standards become increasingly not relevant.. you do not think this??

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sometimes, if people won't share something with you, well...there might be reasons...

culturally speaking; the person being questioned has little need to prove anything and finds it much easier to simply tell the questioner they are correct so they simply go away. This of course, within the culture, means that they simply do not take the questioner seriously, but it is much easier to make them go away that way that get into a long pointless (their POV) discussion. You have likely seen this first hand based on your teacher and it extends far beyond things martial arts within that culture.

 

[Steve]

And sometimes the answer can be as simple as, "you want proof? Well given what a jerk you have been, satisfying you isn't on my list of priorities. So, no."

I couldn't find the emoticon who shrugs his shoulders, so this one will need to suffice.

Completely appropriate if the questions are uninvited. But that's not what happens around here. Once again, to use our carpenter and our "other guy":

Other guy: My screwdriver is very effective at driving nails into wood.
Carpenter: Can you show me?
Other guy: Yes, but I don't want to. You'd have to train with me for years to find out for yourself.
Carpenter: I'm not saying I want to be an expert screwdriver. I just want to know more about what you're doing.
Other guy: You're just a know it all.
Carpenter: I'm starting to think you can't do what you say you can do.
Other guy: You're a jerk and showing you isn't very high on my priority list.

Standards facilitate dissemination.. A standard of judging -as distinct from a syllabus etc- is not necessarily useful or even helpful in assisting any one martial artist to practice their own personal way beyond symbolically marking progress, and that is only within one system..

Across disparate and discrete martial arts (or any other) systems with little common ground beyond the high level description, standards become increasingly not relevant.. you do not think this??

Really good training exists when you have three main things: clear standards, clear objectives or goals and a well defined syllabus. It all starts with a goal in mind. An objective is an end result. It's something that can be demonstrated and is a building block for training, and it should be clear and concrete. Something that you can evaluate. Punching a board in half could be a clear standard. Performing a kata. Whatever it is, it should be something you can demonstrate. Standards are how you define success, and the syllabus is the way you teach it.

While it's not essential to have standards in all things, but it is essential to have some standards if you define a goal/objective. It goes in reverse. Once you make claims about what you can or cannot do, you really need to start figuring out how to achieve the goal. In other words, the goal is the catalyst for these things. You say you can do X or are learning X. Okay. How do you know when you've achieved X? That's the standard. And how are you learning to do X? That's the syllabus. So, to sum up. The Goal/Objective creates the need for Standards, and the Standards drive the creation of the Syllabus. From the trainer perspective it goes that direction. From the student perspective, it flips. You complete the syllabus to meet the standards to attain the goal.

So, I hear you, Jenna. I think X is driving a nail into a block of wood. I may be completely off base. For you, X might be something completely different. Ultimately, whether I get it or not, you have some goal. If you choose to share your goal with me, whatever X might be, great. But either way, you're working toward some goal, and in order to know whether you're headed in the right direction, you will intuitively be establishing standards for yourself.

What we see around here isn't a dearth of goals or standards. What we really see, IMO, is a profound disconnect between the syllabus, the standards and peoples' stated goals. If your training is not preparing you to meet your own standards, you have a disconnect. This is true if you're a BJJ guy who thinks upside down guard is good for self defense, or if you're a tai chi guy who thinks repulsing monkeys is good for self defense, or whatever else. If self defense is your goal, you need to figure out what that means fr you and then train to that end. If enlightenment is your goal, great. Define it and then train for it.

If someone asks you to show them what you mean, and you can't, you're doing it wrong (whatever "it" might be).

 

[Flying Crane]

Completely appropriate if the questions are uninvited. But that's not what happens around here. Once again, to use our carpenter and our "other guy":

Other guy: My screwdriver is very effective at driving nails into wood.
Carpenter: Can you show me?
Other guy: Yes, but I don't want to. You'd have to train with me for years to find out for yourself.
Carpenter: I'm not saying I want to be an expert screwdriver. I just want to know more about what you're doing.
Other guy: You're just a know it all.
Carpenter: I'm starting to think you can't do what you say you can do.
Other guy: You're a jerk and showing you isn't very high on my priority list.

Really good training exists when you have three main things: clear standards, clear objectives or goals and a well defined syllabus. It all starts with a goal in mind. An objective is an end result. It's something that can be demonstrated and is a building block for training, and it should be clear and concrete. Something that you can evaluate. Punching a board in half could be a clear standard. Performing a kata. Whatever it is, it should be something you can demonstrate. Standards are how you define success, and the syllabus is the way you teach it.

While it's not essential to have standards in all things, but it is essential to have some standards if you define a goal/objective. It goes in reverse. Once you make claims about what you can or cannot do, you really need to start figuring out how to achieve the goal. In other words, the goal is the catalyst for these things. You say you can do X or are learning X. Okay. How do you know when you've achieved X? That's the standard. And how are you learning to do X? That's the syllabus. So, to sum up. The Goal/Objective creates the need for Standards, and the Standards drive the creation of the Syllabus. From the trainer perspective it goes that direction. From the student perspective, it flips. You complete the syllabus to meet the standards to attain the goal.

So, I hear you, Jenna. I think X is driving a nail into a block of wood. I may be completely off base. For you, X might be something completely different. Ultimately, whether I get it or not, you have some goal. If you choose to share your goal with me, whatever X might be, great. But either way, you're working toward some goal, and in order to know whether you're headed in the right direction, you will intuitively be establishing standards for yourself.

What we see around here isn't a dearth of goals or standards. What we really see, IMO, is a profound disconnect between the syllabus, the standards and peoples' stated goals. If your training is not preparing you to meet your own standards, you have a disconnect. This is true if you're a BJJ guy who thinks upside down guard is good for self defense, or if you're a tai chi guy who thinks repulsing monkeys is good for self defense, or whatever else. If self defense is your goal, you need to figure out what that means fr you and then train to that end. If enlightenment is your goal, great. Define it and then train for it.

If someone asks you to show them what you mean, and you can't, you're doing it wrong (whatever "it" might be).

I'm glad you know everything Steve. Your journey is complete.

 

[Buka]

I'm so confused.

 

[Steve]

It is nice that you feel that way, however 6000 years of martial arts evolution in China has failed to reach this magic agreed upon standard, and the same can be said for many martial arts of many cultures that have also been around hundreds or even thousands of years. So that can I then assume that since they do not have this standard that you then consider them all questionable?

If I tell you that you must eat food to be well nourished, I'm not telling you what to eat or even forcing you to eat food. I'm also not telling you my food is better than yours.

 

[Steve]

I'm so confused.

Flying Crane is trying to troll me.

 

[Steve]

I'm glad you know everything Steve. Your journey is complete.

The irony is that you are the one who is unwilling to consider that you might have something to learn. I hope you figure that out someday.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Completely appropriate if the questions are uninvited. But that's not what happens around here. Once again, to use our carpenter and our "other guy":

Other guy: My screwdriver is very effective at driving nails into wood.
Carpenter: Can you show me?
Other guy: Yes, but I don't want to. You'd have to train with me for years to find out for yourself.
Carpenter: I'm not saying I want to be an expert screwdriver. I just want to know more about what you're doing.
Other guy: You're just a know it all.
Carpenter: I'm starting to think you can't do what you say you can do.
Other guy: You're a jerk and showing you isn't very high on my priority list.

Lets look at it this way

Carpenter: My screwdriver is very effective at driving nails into wood.
Other guy: Can you show me, because I think your fake?
Carpenter: You're right, I'm fake.
Other guy: I knew it you're a fake.
Carpenter: OK, have a nice day.
Other guy: (leaves) man I sure showed that idiot
Carpenter: goes about his business hammering nails with a screwdriver

 

[Steve]

Lets look at it this way

Carpenter: My screwdriver is very effective at driving nails into wood.
Other guy: Can you show me, because I think your fake?
Carpenter: You're right, I'm fake.
Other guy: I knew it you're a fake.
Carpenter: OK, have a nice day.
Other guy: (leaves) man I sure showed that idiot
Carpenter: goes about his business hammering nails with a screwdriver

I'm sure that happens. The head scratcher here for me is that, on a martial arts forum, it seems very unconstructive to make claims you have no intention of supporting. That's the only part of your dialogue that doesn't make sense to me. If you have no interest in engaging, why engage?

The other guy in this situation didn't initiate the dialogue. It started with an assertion that you seem to have no interest in supporting. Doesn't that seem disingenuous to you?

 

[Flying Crane]

The irony is that you are the one who is unwilling to consider that you might have something to learn. I hope you figure that out someday.

I'm glad we have someone like yourself here on the forum with such a vast expanse of knowledge. We can get all of our answers from you.

Well, that's a relief. We are saved from our own folly.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm sure that happens. The head scratcher here for me is that, on a martial arts forum, it seems very unconstructive to make claims you have no intention of supporting. That's the only part of your dialogue that doesn't make sense to me. If you have no interest in engaging, why engage?

The other guy in this situation didn't initiate the dialogue. It started with an assertion that you seem to have no interest in supporting. Doesn't that seem disingenuous to you?

Do you actually believe the ******** that you write? Nobody else does.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Is not just in martial arts of course, and but some martial artists appear as kind of evangelical missionaries attempting to persuade the rest of the martial art world to their singular, dogmatic and non-inclusive view of what is right, what is best, what is most apropos as a way of doing martial art.. Have you also encounter this??

It's doesn't seem to be as bad as it used to be. I think people are starting to become comfortable with the truth of "I don't have to do martial arts to learn how to fight." This is probably thanks to all of the martial arts themed fitness classes. Just by going on what I've seen here, I would say people feel less of a need to defend the system and put the focus of this is why I do it. If I take kung fu to stay fit then having a debate with me about kung fu fighting is just a waste of time for me and the person trying to tell me that I don't do the "real thing." I would already know this which is why I would do kung fu fit in the first place, because I don't want to get the bruises, I don't want to do forms, and I don't care about using it as a defense. When someone tells another person this, then it's difficult to argue otherwise.

 

[Steve]

I'm glad we have someone like yourself here on the forum with such a vast expanse of knowledge. We can get all of our answers from you.

Well, that's a relief. We are saved from our own folly.

If you want to learn more about how people learn, I'm your guy, FC, and I'm happy to share what I know. Really, we only scratch the surface on this forum when it comes to this.

Something to consider. When other people are openly disrespectful toward you in areas where you have some expertise, you get very upset. I've seen it, and I totally get it. Do you understand that you're doing that very same thing to me? It's pretty rude. I have never attacked your martial arts style, or disparaged your training methods. I have never claimed to know everything, and as I pointed out to Xue above, I'm not interested at all in dictating what you do or how you do it. I haven't said you're a fake or a fraud or anything like that, and I've never suggested that MMA or BJJ is better than any other style.

I've tried to answer your posts as best I can and address what I interpret are the root questions. If you don't like my answers, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm sure that happens. The head scratcher here for me is that, on a martial arts forum, it seems very unconstructive to make claims you have no intention of supporting. That's the only part of your dialogue that doesn't make sense to me. If you have no interest in engaging, why engage?

The other guy in this situation didn't initiate the dialogue. It started with an assertion that you seem to have no interest in supporting. Doesn't that seem disingenuous to you?

You are making assumptions about the reason the conversation began and missing the confrontational tone of the "other guy", I am simply providing a different view since there is more than just one view as it applies to this discussion. If one starts off asking a question in a confrontational manner they have set a confrontational tone for the discussion (now argument) since it was, in this case started with "fake". does it make since to go on page after page of arguing with one who has already made their decision before the discussion ever began. Or is it better to simply let it go and move on?

And if the "other guy" has a history of being confrontational and arguing, does it make since to indulge his need to argue or is it better to just let it go?