The Last Legionary
All warfare is based on deception.<br><b>nemo malu
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MTS Alumni
Martial Arts and the Law
- Thread starter rdonovan1
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That's very, very rude and it's not appreciated at all.
I see a lot of potential lawsuits here because no one really wants to listen to reality and what the law says about the subject.
It's kind of funny that way because it only reinforces what I have been saying about lawmakers and as to how they view the martial arts.
Why give them more ammunition than they already have? Do people really want lawmakers to view the martial arts like they do guns? If that is the case then people can continue on the path that they are on. The only problem is that the law won't be very sympathetic at all because according to the law ignorance of the law is no excuse. That is the official position that the law takes and as far as the law is concerned it is not an excuse nor is it a legal defense to say that you didn't know the law.
Dude, you're preaching to the choir here. If I happen to be attacked, someone breaks into my house, etc., Im going to defend myself, plain and simple. I'll respond accordingly to whats happening. My main goal is my safety and that of anyone with me. If the badguy wants to try to sue me, because HE attacked me, then so be it. A fine upstanding citizen, with no criminal record (me) compared to some POS scumbag, with a record longer than my arm (the badguy) Hmmm....who do you think the court will believe?
Then again, nothing says that I'll be standing around, waiting for the PD to arrive.
Again, I'll worry about the other stuff later....my first concern is myself. As to whether or not the govt, senators, politicians, or whoever, likes or dislikes the martial arts....frankly, I really dont give a rats behind. Perhaps they should focus on some of the more important world issues, like the crappy economy that we are living with, rather than worrying about who is training in TKD, Kenpo or BJJ.
Soooo,,,rather than just ignoring him, and moving on, you post a reply in similar fashion? Yeah, alrighty then. This thread will probably be closed in T-minus 9 seconds.
How about following the advise of the mod warning and returning to the original topic?
Dude, you're preaching to the choir here. If I happen to be attacked, someone breaks into my house, etc., Im going to defend myself, plain and simple. I'll respond accordingly to whats happening. My main goal is my safety and that of anyone with me. If the badguy wants to try to sue me, because HE attacked me, then so be it. A fine upstanding citizen, with no criminal record (me) compared to some POS scumbag, with a record longer than my arm (the badguy) Hmmm....who do you think the court will believe?
Then again, nothing says that I'll be standing around, waiting for the PD to arrive.
Again, I'll worry about the other stuff later....my first concern is myself. As to whether or not the govt, senators, politicians, or whoever, likes or dislikes the martial arts....frankly, I really dont give a rats behind. Perhaps they should focus on some of the more important world issues, like the crappy economy that we are living with, rather than worrying about who is training in TKD, Kenpo or BJJ.
That's generally how I tend to look at things, but I also am thinking about what the courts and the law is going to say because that is also very important as well.
My approach to crime and things like that is hard core as I'm not interested in being someone's victim at all. I have however noticed that because of the way that lawyers tend to approach things they have pretty much messed up the system.
According to one book that I read relating to the law which was written by a lawyer the legal profession is a sue for profit industry and more often than not the lawyers themselves have gone out of their way to protect their own self interests even to the point of showing nothing but complete and utter contempt for the courts.
I've also noticed that more and more police officers are basically violating the rights that we are supposed to have.
The primary idea of this thread is the law and that should be the main topic, but it also does apply to the martial arts because both the law and the martial arts are very similar in nature. It's also important because bad apples and the media have left a bad taste in the mouths of lawmakers to the point where they have been paying more attention to the martial arts and that is all that it takes.
Instead of giving them a negative image of the martial arts, why not give them a positive image of the martial arts? Wouldn't that make more sense than giving them a bad image of the martial arts?
Its hard to give something a positive image, when the people viewing the thing in question, know ZERO about it. Like I said, I highly doubt we'll ever change that, and personally, I'm not going to try, as its just not worth it to me. Sad as it may be, its something we have to just deal with.
As for the law....know it in your state. If you have to defend yourself, use the amount of force necessary.
I do see, at least I think I do, what your concern is....if we are forced to defend ourselves, and we end up in court, are we going to be judged fairly, by the same people, who're clueless about the arts? Like I said, I'll deal with that later on. Hopefully, my character will speak for itself.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Much though I love free and open conversation, I'm going to go ahead and back the idea of locking this thread. There is no evidence of any move to ban martial arts, none has been produced (or is likely to be), and the conversation is going down some very worn paths. It does no good, and would honestly be a mercy killing...
Robert. Stop. Just stop. You continue to post irrelevantly (in your own threads, no less!), bring up unrelated topics that are innappropriate for here, refuse to listen to anything actually said, and tell us we are saying things we aren't (case in point here being you saying that you are being told by everyone that we would let a "gang member" kill us if they pulled a weapon.... I haven't seen anything close to that in the entire forum, let alone any thread you have been involved in!). You are so far gone in a paranoid delusional world of your own creation that you cannot possibly do or recieve any good here. I wish it was different, but that's the way it is. Saying that you have the Crips and the Bloods in your neighbourhood (in New Mexico, if memory serves, not LA) smacks of this delusion. Though I wish to see everyone grow and learn, you are not in any position to do that, and I would say this is not a healthy place for you, nor indeed any forum on any topic.
For hopes of getting a bit more insight into you, I googled your username, and got a lot of things come up. I do not believe you are a troll, I think you are a delusional paranoid, and you seriously need help. On imdb, for instance, you entered a review of a Jim Henson film, and your entire review was about a failed relationship in the late 80's and how you feel about that. It had nothing to do with the film itself. And that was done in September 2008. You follow the same pattern everywhere, you have no ability to see what is relevant and what isn't, you make everything about you, and you use any tiny connection, even if only one you imagined, to expound on your frankly incredibly inaccurate beliefs and takes on PU, NLP, and much more.
Stop and get the help you desperately need. There is no need for anyone here to answer you, or for you to answer us. If you do get the help, we will be here. If not, this is an endless circle that we simply don't need. Understand?
Robert. Stop. Just stop. You continue to post irrelevantly (in your own threads, no less!), bring up unrelated topics that are innappropriate for here, refuse to listen to anything actually said, and tell us we are saying things we aren't (case in point here being you saying that you are being told by everyone that we would let a "gang member" kill us if they pulled a weapon.... I haven't seen anything close to that in the entire forum, let alone any thread you have been involved in!). You are so far gone in a paranoid delusional world of your own creation that you cannot possibly do or recieve any good here. I wish it was different, but that's the way it is. Saying that you have the Crips and the Bloods in your neighbourhood (in New Mexico, if memory serves, not LA) smacks of this delusion. Though I wish to see everyone grow and learn, you are not in any position to do that, and I would say this is not a healthy place for you, nor indeed any forum on any topic.
For hopes of getting a bit more insight into you, I googled your username, and got a lot of things come up. I do not believe you are a troll, I think you are a delusional paranoid, and you seriously need help. On imdb, for instance, you entered a review of a Jim Henson film, and your entire review was about a failed relationship in the late 80's and how you feel about that. It had nothing to do with the film itself. And that was done in September 2008. You follow the same pattern everywhere, you have no ability to see what is relevant and what isn't, you make everything about you, and you use any tiny connection, even if only one you imagined, to expound on your frankly incredibly inaccurate beliefs and takes on PU, NLP, and much more.
Stop and get the help you desperately need. There is no need for anyone here to answer you, or for you to answer us. If you do get the help, we will be here. If not, this is an endless circle that we simply don't need. Understand?
You've got a lot of good points here and I think that you are right about people not really knowing much about the martial arts. My father who is a lawyer is one of those people who knows absolutely nothing about the martial arts. I've been trying to educate him about the subject in an attempt o get him to understand as to how the martial arts relates to the law, but so far he has been very resistant to the whole thing.
Whether it's the law, the martial arts, business or even dating the tactical concepts of people like Sun Tzu and Miyamoto Musashi apply and that's something that I have been trying to apply to all areas of my life as I tend to believe that there is a lot that we can learn from them as both of them really understood human nature and as to how people really think and act and both of them used that to their advantage in combat.
After world war 2 the Japanese started to take those same concepts and they applied them to business and that is why they have been very successful in business.
When used in a legal or self defense context you are essentially trying to outwit your opponent. In the legal context it is in the form of things like motions, opening and closing arguments, and of course the application of the law to it all.
When it is used in the context of self defense on the street you are essentially outwiting and out thinking your attacker and that's important because no one out on the street is going to sit around and wait for you to jump into some Karate or Kung Fu stance.
The law is important both in this context and in the dating context because you can either go too far or not enough in your application of self defense tactics and techniques which could result in either you getting hurt or you being on the receiving end of either criminal or civil charges being filed against you for use of excessive force.
It's also relevant to the dating scene because either you can be stalked or you can be accused of stalking and that is a crime under the law.
In all of the situations Intent is the key ingrediant because that can make or break either your case or the case of your opponent. There's more that I can add to this, but I'm not going to do so tonight because it is late and becaue I have spent all day listening to the wild iand uneducated deas of a lot of people who are only making the same assumptions as the lawmakers and lawyers that make and enforce the laws. It's pretty sad, but you would think that despite all of their training and what they are supposed to know lawmakers and lawyers would at the very least take the time to educate themselves with the truth.
Because of the way that our legal system works and is setup and because of all of the shenanigans that have been occuring in the legal community I'm inclined to believe that a lot of the problems that the United States currently has is due to their ignorance and poor management.
There are two people on this thread beyond myself at the moment that seem to finally be understanding things and that is good. No one ever said that the law is perfect, but it's all that we really got in the United States and whether we like it or not it effects everything that we do in the United States
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Sorry to disappoint you Chris but you have no idea as to what you are talking about. MJS does however seem to understand things a lot better than most people.
If you don't live in the Unites States and if you don't undertstand United States law and the way things work in the United States then you are not going to know. Trying to apply the rules of other countries does not work in the United States. Googling is not going to help you to understand things at all. Only asking intelligent and well informed questions is and will help and so will knowing about what actually happens in the United States.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Oh boy.
To address your comments in reply to MJS, perchance the reason yourfather has been resistant is that you are far from expert yourself? In fact, I have yet to see any resemblance of insight or knowledge at all. And you really don't seem to get Sun Tzu or Musashi either, by the way. They are martial and military strategy documents, which have been adapted to modern business use, but were never intended to be used as such. And if you use these ideas in gaming, you've really got the wrong idea... Frankly if you are in any way in danger of stalking, you are way off (I think I've said this a few times?). In that occasion you are suffering a rather bad case of oneitis, and you personally are so far below AFC that I wouldn't even consider you as a wing. All you will do is creep people out. Stop all of that. And, for the (hopefully!) last time, stop bringing this topic up here! There is no excuse for it whatsoever!
Now, to your comment to me. You have not supplied a single supporting piece of evidence of your initial claims, whether I live in the US or not, you have yet to produce this potential law or evidence of it in any way whatsoever. But that doesn't really have any relevance, as I didn't mention US law once in my post. So that's you imagining things again. Have I said delusional paranoid yet?
I'll keep this simple:
- Stop posting irrelevant stuff. I personally don't think you can tell the difference, which is leading to this state, though, and if that is the case (if you think everything you have posted is relevant, in other words), stop posting and get help.
- Get help. I know that's repeating myself, but it's important. Get help. We cannot help you.
To address your comments in reply to MJS, perchance the reason yourfather has been resistant is that you are far from expert yourself? In fact, I have yet to see any resemblance of insight or knowledge at all. And you really don't seem to get Sun Tzu or Musashi either, by the way. They are martial and military strategy documents, which have been adapted to modern business use, but were never intended to be used as such. And if you use these ideas in gaming, you've really got the wrong idea... Frankly if you are in any way in danger of stalking, you are way off (I think I've said this a few times?). In that occasion you are suffering a rather bad case of oneitis, and you personally are so far below AFC that I wouldn't even consider you as a wing. All you will do is creep people out. Stop all of that. And, for the (hopefully!) last time, stop bringing this topic up here! There is no excuse for it whatsoever!
Now, to your comment to me. You have not supplied a single supporting piece of evidence of your initial claims, whether I live in the US or not, you have yet to produce this potential law or evidence of it in any way whatsoever. But that doesn't really have any relevance, as I didn't mention US law once in my post. So that's you imagining things again. Have I said delusional paranoid yet?
I'll keep this simple:
- Stop posting irrelevant stuff. I personally don't think you can tell the difference, which is leading to this state, though, and if that is the case (if you think everything you have posted is relevant, in other words), stop posting and get help.
- Get help. I know that's repeating myself, but it's important. Get help. We cannot help you.
Sounds like you need to educate yourself on the real issues because at the moment you are not demonstrating that you have any real knowledge of this issue.
Unlike you I actually live in the United States and I have to deal with the laws of the United States every day. Googling about it is not going to help you because it is something that you have to experience for yourself.
Trying to say that you do know when you are not directly dealing with with the laws of the United States is just as bad as the lawmakers who claim to think that they know all about the martial arts because they watch a Bruce Lee movie.
That's part of the problem in the United States and that's where a lot of the problems with the laws in the United States have cropped up from. It's a combination of them knowing absolutely zero about the topic like MJS said and the greed and low morals and values of the politicians who make the laws and the lawyers who attempt to interpret the laws.
The problem with my father has come up because he has willfully and deliberately chosen to ignore the truth and the facts because of how he really feels about me. He's been doing this for years and you would have to understand the relationship and what was said in order to understand. Googling won't do a thing so let's do everyone a favor and stay on topic and let's use some good old fashioned common sense and people skills as that can go a long ways.
There's no sense in lower ourselves to the point of the politicians and the lawyers. If they want to be stupid then that is up to them. That doesn't mean that we should be the same way.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Bit by bit it is, then...
Stay on topic you said... well, give some evidence to support your own topic thread. Show us why you think there is a move to ban martial arts. We have LEOs here, security officers, contact with Black Belt judges, I'm sure more judicial employees than have been mentioned, and these include many in the US (so you don't get confused over who's laws we are discussing), and no-one seems to know anything about this other than you... although you stated on the first page that everyone here should know about it.
Provide some evidence or we will simply assume that this is the result of your imagination. Don't bring anything else up. Don't argue pointless imagined posts. Just show what you are talking about. Because I for one don't believe this ban exists.
Stay on topic you said... well, give some evidence to support your own topic thread. Show us why you think there is a move to ban martial arts. We have LEOs here, security officers, contact with Black Belt judges, I'm sure more judicial employees than have been mentioned, and these include many in the US (so you don't get confused over who's laws we are discussing), and no-one seems to know anything about this other than you... although you stated on the first page that everyone here should know about it.
Provide some evidence or we will simply assume that this is the result of your imagination. Don't bring anything else up. Don't argue pointless imagined posts. Just show what you are talking about. Because I for one don't believe this ban exists.
Chris Parker once mentioned something to me a long time ago about changing oneself and that is good advice and it is something that I have been doing for a long time.
Unfortunately that advice has not translated over to the American public or to the politicians, lawyers and corporations in the United States and I personally think that is one of the reasons as to why our economy is currently in the toilet.
President Obama says that he inherited all of this when he got into office and in many ways he is right because the problems that this country currently faces has been around since before he even got into office.
Hollywood has not really helped the situation much at all and neither have the parents, schools, or even the churches. At one time it was lawful in the United States for a parent to spank and discipline their child, but since the inception of laws that have basically attempted to punish the parents, schools and churches for disciplining a child in public many parents, schools and churches are really unsure as to what they can and cannot do because they are afraid that if they do something like spanking a child then they will be accused of child abuse and will be sued in court by a greedy lawyer looking to make money off of it.
The courts haven't really done much that is positive either. Part of that is because of overburdend legal system and part of it relates to the way that the laws are currently setup. Instead of truly punishing the criminals they have for years been doing things like letting them off even when they know that the person is guilty and the funny thing is that Hollywood really hasn't helped the situation either.
It's my belief and it is the belief of several Pastors that I have talked to at the church that I go to that if the law, the parents, the schools, and the churches were to take more responsibility for a lot of the things that have been occuring in the United States then chances are that we would see a lot less crime and we probably would also see a lot less instances of insanity as well.
The American society has basically seen a degradation in morals and values since the 1950's and much of it is directly attributable to the American legal system and declining morals and values in the United States.
I personally think that if our society were to take more responsibilty for the problems that we have created instead of blaming one another for our own mistakes then our society would improve.
All people have to do to find evidence of what I am saying is to look around because it's all over the place. One example of this is the Columbine, Colorado shooting by several disturbed teenagers in the early 2000's. That is just one of many example's of what I am talking about.
I also tend to believe that one of the best ways that we can combat stuff like that is to start setting better examples for kids to follow while at the same time holding the government and many of the corporations accountable for their actions. It's one thing to be ambitious and to want to protect yourself and your family, but it is quite another when greed is the primary motivation behind many of the lawsuits and corporations.
One good example of corporate greed and mismanagement is Enron.
Unfortunately that advice has not translated over to the American public or to the politicians, lawyers and corporations in the United States and I personally think that is one of the reasons as to why our economy is currently in the toilet.
President Obama says that he inherited all of this when he got into office and in many ways he is right because the problems that this country currently faces has been around since before he even got into office.
Hollywood has not really helped the situation much at all and neither have the parents, schools, or even the churches. At one time it was lawful in the United States for a parent to spank and discipline their child, but since the inception of laws that have basically attempted to punish the parents, schools and churches for disciplining a child in public many parents, schools and churches are really unsure as to what they can and cannot do because they are afraid that if they do something like spanking a child then they will be accused of child abuse and will be sued in court by a greedy lawyer looking to make money off of it.
The courts haven't really done much that is positive either. Part of that is because of overburdend legal system and part of it relates to the way that the laws are currently setup. Instead of truly punishing the criminals they have for years been doing things like letting them off even when they know that the person is guilty and the funny thing is that Hollywood really hasn't helped the situation either.
It's my belief and it is the belief of several Pastors that I have talked to at the church that I go to that if the law, the parents, the schools, and the churches were to take more responsibility for a lot of the things that have been occuring in the United States then chances are that we would see a lot less crime and we probably would also see a lot less instances of insanity as well.
The American society has basically seen a degradation in morals and values since the 1950's and much of it is directly attributable to the American legal system and declining morals and values in the United States.
I personally think that if our society were to take more responsibilty for the problems that we have created instead of blaming one another for our own mistakes then our society would improve.
All people have to do to find evidence of what I am saying is to look around because it's all over the place. One example of this is the Columbine, Colorado shooting by several disturbed teenagers in the early 2000's. That is just one of many example's of what I am talking about.
I also tend to believe that one of the best ways that we can combat stuff like that is to start setting better examples for kids to follow while at the same time holding the government and many of the corporations accountable for their actions. It's one thing to be ambitious and to want to protect yourself and your family, but it is quite another when greed is the primary motivation behind many of the lawsuits and corporations.
One good example of corporate greed and mismanagement is Enron.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Dude, did you read a single word I wrote? There is no relevance to your own topic here at all! You are going to get this thread locked down just like your other one very quickly.
Present your evidence, stick to the topic, or stop posting. That's all. Okay?
Present your evidence, stick to the topic, or stop posting. That's all. Okay?
I think that you are forgetting something that you once brought up to me a long time ago and that is about personal change. That was good advice and that is something that I have been working on for a long time.
If you read some of the other posts that I have recently posted then you will hopefully start to get a better idea as to where some of what I am talking about comes from.
You claim to know a lot about the seduction community, but what you don't seem to realize is that everything that you have supposedly studied relating to seduction started in the United States because of the way that people tend to act and a lot of that goes directly to the very fabric of American society and that is something that you cannot and will not know about unless you live in the United States and see it for yourself first hand. Reading about it on Google doesn't work because that does not tell you anything. Only first hand experience with it can tell you anything about it at all.
Most Americans know what I am talking about or at least should know because they were taught the same things that I and every other American has been taught. Some of what we were taught came from our parents, schools, churches and our friends while other parts we got from watching television and movies, listening to music that was produced in the United States and of course having to deal with the law and the lawyers in the United States.
It's all really simple and if you had been born and raised in the United States then you would know what I am talking about because we are reminded of it every four years when it comes to electing a new President of the United States. We sit around and we listening to them talk about what is wrong with our society and our government and what they plan to do about it if they are elected. More often than not though we are let down big time by them once they get into office because it is nothing but the same pack of lies that the last president made before the new one.
I don't know about other countries, but the United States has definately seen a major breakdown in morals and values and that is and has become evident to every American because you can't turn around in the United States without hearing at least something about it or seeing it for yourself.
When I was growing up things were a little different because while we still rebelled we did not talk about how cool it would be to go out and kill someone. We still had sex, drugs, and rock and roll but unlike now it was a lot tamer and milder. This basically an American invention that started in the 1950's but has since made the rest of the world either love us or hate us.
Dude, It's right in front of your face. If you can't figure it out then that is your problem. Not mine.
I'm even citing as to where many of these issues came about. It's really not that hard to understand at all. It's so simple that even a kindergartner could see it.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Yes, it was good advice, and I wish you could hear it. You haven't changed in any way I can see since your last time here.
This is my last post here, you don't listen, and I'm running out of patience and energy. You consistantly refuse to deal with your own topic, and I see no point in continuing this. You have not cited a single instance for your claims, but have rather tried in a very confusing way to give your own imagined reasons for your imagined situation. There are no politicians trying to ban martial arts, so your "reasoning" is pointless, as is this entire thread.
I try to keep the game stuff out of here, you really should take that as a guide, but honestly stop reading it as you don't get it. At all. In any way. But for the record, it didn't start in the US because of anything there; Mystery is Canadian, as is Rick H, Zan Perrion, David X, and many other of the guys who started all of this in the first place. Gambler and Kezia, along with AFC Adam and many others are from the UK, it's really only Ross and Major Mark who were the first in the US, they were followed by Style, David DeAngelo, Carlos Xuma and others who helped bring things more "mainstream" (something I'm not particuarly thrilled with, but it works for them!). You're off again.
Your personal ideals of morals and the decay of the US tell me that you are in no way suited to the community. Bow out. The sexual revolution of the 60's is not part of it, and is not why many in the world have issues with the US (although it has been seized on by Islamic extremists and others, but that's only part of it). Believe me, I know the history, and the origins. And your geography is out. Ross may have started everything with the advent of the internet, but the big push came from Mystery, and he did it all himself, so claiming the US as the source is incorrect. Oh, and I don't get any of this from google. That was just you. Really, read the actual words, it'll help.
Okay, that should put that to bed. I'm serious about this, never bring up that topic again. For one thing, you have no idea what you are talking about, but more importantly, it has absolutely no place here! Am I clear?
With that said, unless you can actually come up with a news report, a ratified bill, a law, or something to support the idea that US politicians are wanting to ban martial arts, you have no credibility in your own thread, and I have no wish to go in circles any more.
This is my last post here, you don't listen, and I'm running out of patience and energy. You consistantly refuse to deal with your own topic, and I see no point in continuing this. You have not cited a single instance for your claims, but have rather tried in a very confusing way to give your own imagined reasons for your imagined situation. There are no politicians trying to ban martial arts, so your "reasoning" is pointless, as is this entire thread.
I try to keep the game stuff out of here, you really should take that as a guide, but honestly stop reading it as you don't get it. At all. In any way. But for the record, it didn't start in the US because of anything there; Mystery is Canadian, as is Rick H, Zan Perrion, David X, and many other of the guys who started all of this in the first place. Gambler and Kezia, along with AFC Adam and many others are from the UK, it's really only Ross and Major Mark who were the first in the US, they were followed by Style, David DeAngelo, Carlos Xuma and others who helped bring things more "mainstream" (something I'm not particuarly thrilled with, but it works for them!). You're off again.
Your personal ideals of morals and the decay of the US tell me that you are in no way suited to the community. Bow out. The sexual revolution of the 60's is not part of it, and is not why many in the world have issues with the US (although it has been seized on by Islamic extremists and others, but that's only part of it). Believe me, I know the history, and the origins. And your geography is out. Ross may have started everything with the advent of the internet, but the big push came from Mystery, and he did it all himself, so claiming the US as the source is incorrect. Oh, and I don't get any of this from google. That was just you. Really, read the actual words, it'll help.
Okay, that should put that to bed. I'm serious about this, never bring up that topic again. For one thing, you have no idea what you are talking about, but more importantly, it has absolutely no place here! Am I clear?
With that said, unless you can actually come up with a news report, a ratified bill, a law, or something to support the idea that US politicians are wanting to ban martial arts, you have no credibility in your own thread, and I have no wish to go in circles any more.
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