Martial Art or Theory?

[K-man]

That is true and karate is no older than 1880's no mater what okinawian katare people may say . At the time , end of 19th and beginning of 20th century , okinawian people went to work to Fujian , much like many Philippines Thay and Indonesian people are going to Taiwan or Hong Kong today . There they learned arts they could afford to pay and would be accepted in schools . White Crane was pretty much out of their social and financial level , reserved for rich people . What they had learned they brought back and combine it among them self and adapting it to their own needs and perspective .

I think you'll find it goes back 30 or 40 years before that to Bushi Matsumora. With his relationship to the Okinawan King he certainly had the connections to train in China where he studied for many years before returning to Okinawa about 1840 or before. Okinawan Te was certainly around before that so I'm not sure what you are basing your date of 1880 on. There were others before Matsumora but they didn't have the same mass following. I doubt many Okinawans learned Kung fu while working in China. That would be at odds with my understanding of how the martial arts were taught in China. The ones who actually put Karate on the map were guys like Matsumora, Higaonna and Uechi. All of them went to China specifically to learn the martial art. Then in Fukien the Crane styles were dominant so it makes sense that they would have been learned and incorporated.

 

[zuti car]

I think you'll find it goes back 30 or 40 years before that to Bushi Matsumora. With his relationship to the Okinawan King he certainly had the connections to train in China where he studied for many years before returning to Okinawa about 1840 or before. Okinawan Te was certainly around before that so I'm not sure what you are basing your date of 1880 on. There were others before Matsumora but they didn't have the same mass following. I doubt many Okinawans learned Kung fu while working in China. That would be at odds with my understanding of how the martial arts were taught in China. The ones who actually put Karate on the map were guys like Matsumora, Higaonna and Uechi. All of them went to China specifically to learn the martial art. Then in Fukien the Crane styles were dominant so it makes sense that they would have been learned and incorporated.

I was actually polite and wanted to give more credit to okinawian karate than it really has. The truth is , karate as we know it today was formed in the 20th century . What ever Chinese martial arts were sporadically practiced on Okinawa before 1900's could not be called karate , it was just Chinese kung fu . In 1880"started migration of okinawian workers to Fujian and that may be the starting point of karate , but if we want to be honest that was not karate , that was kung fu . Before that time , sporadically some people practiced some Chinese or whatever arts they could find, but that was not karate and these people were rare individuals who could afford it. Great majority of the people on Okinawa were farmers and lived very poorly . Anyone who lived and worked some time on the farm ( I did) knows that after whole day of work in the field there is no way to practice any martial art . these people struggle to survive , to provide the most basic needs , martial arts were the last thing on their list of priorities . Only after a great number of people went to China and then returned ,bringing whatever they manage to learn there , karate started to form. This economical migration started at the end of 19th century and , despite what okinavian karate people may say , their ancestors went to China to serach job oportunities not to learn martial arts . Thous who have , they brought it back , combine it among them self and form karate . This happened somewhere between 1900"s and 1930"s. It is common thing in the east to move creation date of the art further in the past to give it more "face" but in a case of karate things are pretty obvious .

 

[geezer]

It is common thing in the east to move creation date of the art further in the past to give it more "face" but in a case of karate things are pretty obvious .

Yeah. We do this in the West too. On the other hand, of late I've seen a trend the other way among folks that like to present themselves as some kind of "hard-boiled realists". For example Ben Judkins position that the bong-tan rolling platform for Chi Sau began in the mid 20th Century with Yip Man when other branches that split off half a century earlier use the same format.

OK, Ben Judkins may be a social science professor, but just because you are an academic doesn't make you right! Just ask Joy. He made a distinguished career in academia, and over the years, I'll bet he met a fair number of colleagues who got things majorly wrong!

 

[Vajramusti]

Yeah. We do this in the West too. On the other hand, of late I've seen a trend the other way among folks that like to present themselves as some kind of "hard-boiled realists". For example Ben Judkins position that the bong-tan rolling platform for Chi Sau began in the mid 20th Century with Yip Man when other branches that split off half a century earlier use the same format.

OK, Ben Judkins may be a social science professor, but just because you are an academic doesn't make you right! Just ask Joy. He made a distinguished career in academia, and over the years, I'll bet he met a fair number of colleagues who got things majorly wrong!

 

[Vajramusti]

True

 

[zuti car]

Yeah. We do this in the West too. On the other hand, of late I've seen a trend the other way among folks that like to present themselves as some kind of "hard-boiled realists". For example Ben Judkins position that the bong-tan rolling platform for Chi Sau began in the mid 20th Century with Yip Man when other branches that split off half a century earlier use the same format.

OK, Ben Judkins may be a social science professor, but just because you are an academic doesn't make you right! Just ask Joy. He made a distinguished career in academia, and over the years, I'll bet he met a fair number of colleagues who got things majorly wrong!

Depends on what someone is basing his opinion . Just because someone has high education doesn't mean he can't be wrong . I could be wrong to , but for now evidence go in my favor .

 

[K-man]

I was actually polite and wanted to give more credit to okinawian karate than it really has.

That's mighty generous.

The truth is , karate as we know it today was formed in the 20th century.

Agreed. Before that it was known as Te and I'll agree that it was only after Higaonna returned from China that karate began to develop its character.

What ever Chinese martial arts were sporadically practiced on Okinawa before 1900's could not be called karate , it was just Chinese kung fu.

No, I beg to disagree. There was an accumulation of martial arts that manifested as Tegumi or Okinawan wrestling that was practised and it was not much like Kung fu at all.

In 1880"started migration of okinawian workers to Fujian and that may be the starting point of karate , but if we want to be honest that was not karate , that was kung fu.

Hmm. Okinawans had been going backwards and forwards to China for centuries. Before its invasion in 1609 by the Satsuma, Okinawa was an independent kingdom trading with China, Japan and many other countries in the region including Vietnam, Korea and Thailand. It was formally annexed to Japan in 1879. Your 'migration of Okinawan workers' was most likely an exodus of Chinese people who did not want to live under the rule of Japan. The economic exodus began about 20 years later and was to Hawaii, not China.

As to these people bring martial art knowledge back to Okinawa I have seen no evidence at all.

Before that time , sporadically some people practiced some Chinese or whatever arts they could find, but that was not karate and these people were rare individuals who could afford it. Great majority of the people on Okinawa were farmers and lived very poorly . Anyone who lived and worked some time on the farm ( I did) knows that after whole day of work in the field there is no way to practice any martial art . these people struggle to survive , to provide the most basic needs , martial arts were the last thing on their list of priorities.

Which ties in with what has already been stated that certain individuals went to Fuzhou specifically to learn the local martial art, which of course was Kung fu.

Only after a great number of people went to China and then returned ,bringing whatever they manage to learn there , karate started to form.

I think you need to provide evidence for this statement. I have never seen that theory put anywhere before.

This economical migration started at the end of 19th century and , despite what okinavian karate people may say , their ancestors went to China to serach job oportunities not to learn martial arts.

Again, I can find no evidence to back this. Up to 20,000 Okinawans went to Hawaii and the Hawaiian Government passed legislation to prevent further immigration.

Thous who have , they brought it back , combine it among them self and form karate.

No evidence of that at all. There were basically three schools teaching Tomari-Te, Shuri-Te and Naha-Te. These were an amalgamation of the local martial art and Kung fu. Later Kanbun Uechi brought back Pangainoon which was pure Kung fu as he had learned it and taught it in China. The big change in the teaching of Karate occurred when it was introduced to the schools. Mind you, the guys that brought the martial arts back from China did so over a 50 to 60 year period. There is no evidence of them getting together to produce 'karate'.

This happened somewhere between 1900"s and 1930"s. It is common thing in the east to move creation date of the art further in the past to give it more "face" but in a case of karate things are pretty obvious .

No one is doubting that Karate was developed in the early 1900s and that its name was changed from 'Chinese Hand' to 'Empty Hand' about 1920 but it had been known as karate for years before that.

So let's look at what the common understanding is ...

Bushi Matsumora
Matsumura Sōkon was born in Yamagawa Village, Shuri, Okinawa. Matsumura began the study of karate under the guidance of Sakukawa Kanga. Sakukawa was an old man at the time and reluctant to teach the young Matsumura, who was regarded as something of a troublemaker. However, Sakukawa had promised Matsumura Sōfuku, Matsumura Sōkon’s father, that he would teach the boy, and thus he did. Matsumura spent five years studying under Sakukawa. As a young man, Matsumura had already garnered a reputation as an expert in the martial arts.

Matsumura was recruited into the service of the Shō family, the royal family of the Ryukyua Kingdom in 1816 and received the title Shikudon (also Chikudun Pechin), a gentry rank. He began his career by serving the 17th King of Ryūkyū's second Shō dynasty, King Sho Ko. In 1818 he married Yonamine Chiru, who was a martial arts expert as well. Matsumura eventually became the chief martial arts instructor and bodyguard for the Okinawan King Shō Kō. He subsequently served in this capacity for the last two Okinawan kings, Shō Iku and Sho Tai. Matsumura traveled on behalf of the royal government to Fuzhow and Satsuma. He studied Chuan Fa in China as well as other martial arts and brought what he learned back to Okinawa.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsumura_Sōkon

He went to China well before 1880, most likely in the 1820s or 1830s.

Higaonna Kanryo was a Ryukyuan martial artist who founded a fighting style known at the time as Naha-te. He is recognized as one of the first students of Fujian White Crane Kung Fu masters, namely Ryu Ryu Ko, in the Fuzhou region of China who returned with those skills to Okinawa. His student, Chojun Miyagi, would later found Goju Ryu Karate.

In 1867, Higaonna began to study Monk Fist Boxing (Luohan Quan) from Aragaki Tsuji Pechin Seisho who was a fluent Chinese speaker and interpreter for the Ryūkyūan court. At that time the word karate was not in common use, and the martial arts were often referred to simply as Ti ("hand"), sometimes prefaced by the area of origin, as Nafaa-ti, Shui-ti , or simply Uchinaa-ti.

In September 1870, with the help of Yoshimura Udun Chomei (an Aji or prince), Higaonna gained the travel permit necessary to travel to Fuzhou, on the pretext of going to Beijing as a translator for Okinawan officials. There are records which show that in March 1873 he sailed to Fuzhou in the Fukien province of China, although this may have been a later trip to Fuzhou because accounts passed on by Chojun Miyagi refer to an earlier year of departure in 1870.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higaonna_Kanryō

He went to China in 1870 and returned sometime in the 1880s.

Kanbun Uechi was the founder of Uechi-Ryu, one of the primary karate styles of Okinawa.

Japan began a program of universal male conscription in Okinawa in the late 1800s. In 1897 at the age of 19, Kanbun fled to Fuzhou in Fukien Province, China both to escape Japanese military conscription and to fulfill his dreams of studying martial arts with Chinese masters.

Upon arrival in China, Uechi initially took up the study of Kojo Ryū, but dojo management mocked him for a speech impediment and the offended Uechi sought training elsewhere.

Uechi next took up the study of herbalism and a Kung Fu system called 'Pangainoon-noon' (or Pangainun), under a Chinese master named Shushiwa. Uechi received a certificate of mastery in 1904, and he later opened his own dojo in Nansoye, China.

After returning to Okinawa in February 1910, Uechi moved to Wakayama City, in the Wakayama Prefecture of mainland Japan, where in 1925, he married as well as established the Institute of "Pangainun-ryu (half-hard and soft) Todi-jutsu", and began the process of launching his own dojo. Uechi continued to teach in Wakayama until 1948.

The style he taught was renamed in 1940 to "Uechi-Ryu" Karate in his honor, and is one of the four major styles of Okinawan Karate. It was greatly systematized by Uechi's son, Kanei. Uechi-Ryū has students and dojos around the world, and it is particularly popular in the Northeastern United States (along with one of its variants, Shorei-Ryu).
Kanbun Uechi - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Perhaps you might tell us what part of this history you disagree with and why.

 

[zuti car]

That's mighty generous.

Agreed. Before that it was known as Te and I'll agree that it was only after Higaonna returned from China that karate began to develop its character.

No, I beg to disagree. There was an accumulation of martial arts that manifested as Tegumi or Okinawan wrestling that was practised and it was not much like Kung fu at all.


Hmm. Okinawans had been going backwards and forwards to China for centuries. Before its invasion in 1609 by the Satsuma, Okinawa was an independent kingdom trading with China, Japan and many other countries in the region including Vietnam, Korea and Thailand. It was formally annexed to Japan in 1879. Your 'migration of Okinawan workers' was most likely an exodus of Chinese people who did not want to live under the rule of Japan. The economic exodus began about 20 years later and was to Hawaii, not China.

As to these people bring martial art knowledge back to Okinawa I have seen no evidence at all.

Which ties in with what has already been stated that certain individuals went to Fuzhou specifically to learn the local martial art, which of course was Kung fu.

I think you need to provide evidence for this statement. I have never seen that theory put anywhere before.

Again, I can find no evidence to back this. Up to 20,000 Okinawans went to Hawaii and the Hawaiian Government passed legislation to prevent further immigration.

No evidence of that at all. There were basically three schools teaching Tomari-Te, Shuri-Te and Naha-Te. These were an amalgamation of the local martial art and Kung fu. Later Kanbun Uechi brought back Pangainoon which was pure Kung fu as he had learned it and taught it in China. The big change in the teaching of Karate occurred when it was introduced to the schools. Mind you, the guys that brought the martial arts back from China did so over a 50 to 60 year period. There is no evidence of them getting together to produce 'karate'.

No one is doubting that Karate was developed in the early 1900s and that its name was changed from 'Chinese Hand' to 'Empty Hand' about 1920 but it had been known as karate for years before that.

So let's look at what the common understanding is ...

Bushi Matsumora
Matsumura Sōkon was born in Yamagawa Village, Shuri, Okinawa. Matsumura began the study of karate under the guidance of Sakukawa Kanga. Sakukawa was an old man at the time and reluctant to teach the young Matsumura, who was regarded as something of a troublemaker. However, Sakukawa had promised Matsumura Sōfuku, Matsumura Sōkon’s father, that he would teach the boy, and thus he did. Matsumura spent five years studying under Sakukawa. As a young man, Matsumura had already garnered a reputation as an expert in the martial arts.

Matsumura was recruited into the service of the Shō family, the royal family of the Ryukyua Kingdom in 1816 and received the title Shikudon (also Chikudun Pechin), a gentry rank. He began his career by serving the 17th King of Ryūkyū's second Shō dynasty, King Sho Ko. In 1818 he married Yonamine Chiru, who was a martial arts expert as well. Matsumura eventually became the chief martial arts instructor and bodyguard for the Okinawan King Shō Kō. He subsequently served in this capacity for the last two Okinawan kings, Shō Iku and Sho Tai. Matsumura traveled on behalf of the royal government to Fuzhow and Satsuma. He studied Chuan Fa in China as well as other martial arts and brought what he learned back to Okinawa.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsumura_Sōkon

He went to China well before 1880, most likely in the 1820s or 1830s.

Higaonna Kanryo was a Ryukyuan martial artist who founded a fighting style known at the time as Naha-te. He is recognized as one of the first students of Fujian White Crane Kung Fu masters, namely Ryu Ryu Ko, in the Fuzhou region of China who returned with those skills to Okinawa. His student, Chojun Miyagi, would later found Goju Ryu Karate.

In 1867, Higaonna began to study Monk Fist Boxing (Luohan Quan) from Aragaki Tsuji Pechin Seisho who was a fluent Chinese speaker and interpreter for the Ryūkyūan court. At that time the word karate was not in common use, and the martial arts were often referred to simply as Ti ("hand"), sometimes prefaced by the area of origin, as Nafaa-ti, Shui-ti , or simply Uchinaa-ti.

In September 1870, with the help of Yoshimura Udun Chomei (an Aji or prince), Higaonna gained the travel permit necessary to travel to Fuzhou, on the pretext of going to Beijing as a translator for Okinawan officials. There are records which show that in March 1873 he sailed to Fuzhou in the Fukien province of China, although this may have been a later trip to Fuzhou because accounts passed on by Chojun Miyagi refer to an earlier year of departure in 1870.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higaonna_Kanryō

He went to China in 1870 and returned sometime in the 1880s.

Kanbun Uechi was the founder of Uechi-Ryu, one of the primary karate styles of Okinawa.

Japan began a program of universal male conscription in Okinawa in the late 1800s. In 1897 at the age of 19, Kanbun fled to Fuzhou in Fukien Province, China both to escape Japanese military conscription and to fulfill his dreams of studying martial arts with Chinese masters.

Upon arrival in China, Uechi initially took up the study of Kojo Ryū, but dojo management mocked him for a speech impediment and the offended Uechi sought training elsewhere.

Uechi next took up the study of herbalism and a Kung Fu system called 'Pangainoon-noon' (or Pangainun), under a Chinese master named Shushiwa. Uechi received a certificate of mastery in 1904, and he later opened his own dojo in Nansoye, China.

After returning to Okinawa in February 1910, Uechi moved to Wakayama City, in the Wakayama Prefecture of mainland Japan, where in 1925, he married as well as established the Institute of "Pangainun-ryu (half-hard and soft) Todi-jutsu", and began the process of launching his own dojo. Uechi continued to teach in Wakayama until 1948.

The style he taught was renamed in 1940 to "Uechi-Ryu" Karate in his honor, and is one of the four major styles of Okinawan Karate. It was greatly systematized by Uechi's son, Kanei. Uechi-Ryū has students and dojos around the world, and it is particularly popular in the Northeastern United States (along with one of its variants, Shorei-Ryu).
Kanbun Uechi - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Perhaps you might tell us what part of this history you disagree with and why.

I have one question for you, are you karate practitioner ?
I will not argue with you , just recommend to find your sources outside of martial arts literature , for real research real literature is needed. I don't know much about other two guys , but I know quite a lot about Kambun Uechi . His history changed over the last 30 years several times . Now , some facts about him. He was from a poor peasant family , he had not go to China to learn martial arts , he went to find a job .He couldn't afford to study herbal medicine and kung fu at the same time, prices were astronomical and even for rich social level that was not an easy thing to do . What he actually trained in China nobody knows , his supposed teacher had other students and their descendants have schools in China today, nothing even remotely resembles to uechi ryu .
Long time ago , uechi people claimed that most of their art , especially san jin form came from :Feeding crane" style , Now there is an interesting fact , at the time , no one knew how feeding crane looked like , because everyone thought it was lost . Actually , feeding crane survived in Taiwan and today is one of the most popular crane styles. Guess what , no feeding crane in uechi ryu what so ever . In older histories , Kmabun uechi never had an official school , only taught a group of his fellow okinavians .He also never taught his art professionally. Style got his name after his death , and in older histories he died from malnutrition . Even the year of his death is changed , in older histories it was 1949. Wikipedia in not good source of information because anybody can write there . Now , you look in style and manner of these wiki articles , you can see they are just rewritten from some karate book which is written for people who do not question anything and believe in everything , just because it is in the book .
Now , about martial arts style's popularity . That is no matter of martial skill but more matter of social skill , social position and connections , marketing and luck . People from Uechi karate had luck to be discovered by foreign people and was smart enough to use that opportunity to the maximum . Many people from okinawa learnt kung fu in china but most of them never even tried to open the school , some did but failed ,and some were lucky and smart and today we have several popular styles with pretty histories ( like uechi ) , ancestors with greatest possible skills , ect. I was interested in Uechi long time ago ,fortunately I never start to practice it , so I know how much their history changed . Same thing happened with wing chun . Without bruce lee , wing chun , especially Yip Man's version would never be so popular . It was a matter of luck , not some technical superiority .
To finish this , you said on okinawa people practiced some wrestling and some other atrs and these are predecessors of karate. In my home town , people practice wrestling and boxing for at least 300 years ,now , can I say these arts are predecessors of my wing chun or white crane if I mix it a little and give them other names ?

 

[K-man]

I have one question for you, are you karate practitioner ?

My primary art is Okinawan Goju Karate and I have spent many years researching it.

I will not argue with you , just recommend to find your sources outside of martial arts literature , for real research real literature is needed.

Interesting comment. I have a fair amount of martial art literature. I would have thought that that might have been the most logical source of information on martial arts. What exactly is 'real literature'? Guys like Patrick McCarthy have spent a lifetime researching karate. With all due respect to you, I will take Patrick's research first any day.

I don't know much about other two guys , but I know quite a lot about Kambun Uechi . His history changed over the last 30 years several times . Now , some facts about him. He was from a poor peasant family , he had not go to China to learn martial arts , he went to find a job .He couldn't afford to study herbal medicine and kung fu at the same time, prices were astronomical and even for rich social level that was not an easy thing to do . What he actually trained in China nobody knows , his supposed teacher had other students and their descendants have schools in China today, nothing even remotely resembles to uechi ryu .
Long time ago , uechi people claimed that most of their art , especially san jin form came from :Feeding crane" style , Now there is an interesting fact , at the time , no one knew how feeding crane looked like , because everyone thought it was lost . Actually , feeding crane survived in Taiwan and today is one of the most popular crane styles. Guess what , no feeding crane in uechi ryu what so ever . In older histories , Kmabun uechi never had an official school , only taught a group of his fellow okinavians .He also never taught his art professionally. Style got his name after his death , and in older histories he died from malnutrition . Even the year of his death is changed , in older histories it was 1949. Wikipedia in not good source of information because anybody can write there . Now , you look in style and manner of these wiki articles , you can see they are just rewritten from some karate book which is written for people who do not question anything and believe in everything , just because it is in the book .

Now I haven't much interest in Uechi either apart from the fact that he studied in China, taught in China and brought his style to Okinawa where he taught it in its original form.

What intrigues me is that you are making claims about karate that fly in the face of all karate history and you don't know much about two of the most famous and important founders of karate.

Now , about martial arts style's popularity . That is no matter of martial skill but more matter of social skill , social position and connections , marketing and luck . People from Uechi karate had luck to be discovered by foreign people and was smart enough to use that opportunity to the maximum .

I think you are way off the mark. Of all forms of karate, Uechi-Ryu would be on of the smaller styles of karate, miniscule compared to the Japanese karate styles of Shotokan, Goju Kai and Kyokushin.

Many people from okinawa learnt kung fu in china but most of them never even tried to open the school , some did but failed ,and some were lucky and smart and today we have several popular styles with pretty histories ( like uechi ) , ancestors with greatest possible skills , ect. I was interested in Uechi long time ago ,fortunately I never start to practice it , so I know how much their history changed . Same thing happened with wing chun . Without bruce lee , wing chun , especially Yip Man's version would never be so popular . It was a matter of luck , not some technical superiority .

Perhaps you could show something to back up your claim. I would have thought very few Okinawans would have learned Kung fu in China for any number of reasons.

To finish this , you said on okinawa people practiced some wrestling and some other atrs and these are predecessors of karate. In my home town , people practice wrestling and boxing for at least 300 years ,now , can I say these arts are predecessors of my wing chun or white crane if I mix it a little and give them other names ?

This is a ridiculous question. To answer it simply, yes. If you took your Wing Chun and blended it with wrestling and boxing and called it Tainan-Te you would have a new martial art and it would have its roots in Wing Chun, boxing and wrestling. It would not be a predecessor of Wing Chun because your new art, although having much in common with Wing Chun is no longer Wing Chun, just as karate is no longer Kung fu.

 

[zuti car]

My primary art is Okinawan Goju Karate and I have spent many years researching it.

.

At this point I have realized there is no point to continue .It is very important karate is older than 1900"s isn't it ?

 

[K-man]

At this point I have realized there is no point to continue .It is very important karate is older than 1900"s isn't it ?

Not at all ... and you are technically quite correct in the age of karate. It was mainly developed in the late 1800s, early 1900s, and you are quite right in saying what the original masters learned in China was Kung fu. Okinawan Goju karate still has many elements of Kung fu, but that is not what I am concerned with. Japanese karate is younger again and has lost much of the original style of training.

I also agree with you that Wikipaedia is not a totally reliable source of information but it does tend to have a more readily concise supply of information than trying to do the research yourself.

You made some sweeping generalisations that are totally at odds with the written history and I am interested in knowing where you got your information. For example, your assertion that what was practised in Okinawa in the pre-karate era was Kung fu is at odds with the history that talks about Okinawan wresting or Tegumi as being the local fighting system.

 

[zuti car]

You made some sweeping generalisations that are totally at odds with the written history and I am interested in knowing where you got your information. For example, your assertion that what was practised in Okinawa in the pre-karate era was Kung fu is at odds with the history that talks about Okinawan wresting or Tegumi as being the local fighting system.

Martial history is complete ******** , Chinese MA , Japanese , Korean MA. These stories cannot be called histories by any standard . Martial "histories" are mixture of desires , legends , folk stories , sometimes politics but they do not have almost any truth in them. You said the best way to study martial history is to research martial literature and that is completely wrong. People on the east write :histories: to promote their arts , to inspire young students , sometimes to present desired ethics within the style . Presentation of the facts , true facts of the past events ,what history is on the west and that is how we understand that term, is usually the last priority on the east and again , portion of the truth is MA "history" can be measured on , 0,001 scale .
One more important thing is , no one ever did real scientific research in the field of martial arts , what we have are old people's stories , nothing else.
If you want to research martial history you have to research , social , political, cultural and all other aspect of the specific society ( in case of karate , Okinawan and Chinese as well) . When you understand how these people lived , how did they think, what cultural and social boundaries the, had and you put that in correlation with major historical events you will know what may happened and what is a pure fiction . Also , if you look carefully you can find a lot of inconsistencies and illogical things in these "histories" ( like kambun uechi learnt herbal medicine , if he did , why he didn't work as a doctor, that was one of the best payed jobs at the time . If he did , how could he afford it ? That kind of training was extremely expensive ?From whom did learnt , it is not likely that some chinese doctor would teach him that stuff and creaet a competition , in thous days any kind of trade and knowledge would stay in a family , outsiders were taught only if they come from higher social level and couldn't be refused and of course for serious amount of money . What was the purpose if he planed to go back to Okinawa where plant life if totally different from Fujian .ect) . One more thing "pokes the eye " , how it is possible that all styles founders of any given styles had such a personalty that they can be used as moral and ethical etalons , they were perfect in every way . How is that possible ? MA history is a field that requires some serious, professional research or we will stuck with these stories which are nothing more than simple marketing .

 

[Vajramusti]

The two handed chi sao of Ip Man is a fairly unique development. Sum Nung people also do a version of two handed chi sao.
The single dahn chi sao is pretty important and IP man emphasized it as well. Other wing chun families tended to use a more side ti side motion.

There are other CMAs that use their own unique touch/timing drills.Taiji has its tui shou.

Martial history is complete ******** , Chinese MA , Japanese , Korean MA. These stories cannot be called histories by any standard . Martial "histories" are mixture of desires , legends , folk stories , sometimes politics but they do not have almost any truth in them. You said the best way to study martial history is to research martial literature and that is completely wrong. People on the east write :histories: to promote their arts , to inspire young students , sometimes to present desired ethics within the style . Presentation of the facts , true facts of the past events ,what history is on the west and that is how we understand that term, is usually the last priority on the east and again , portion of the truth is MA "history" can be measured on , 0,001 scale .
One more important thing is , no one ever did real scientific research in the field of martial arts , what we have are old people's stories , nothing else.
If you want to research martial history you have to research , social , political, cultural and all other aspect of the specific society ( in case of karate , Okinawan and Chinese as well) . When you understand how these people lived , how did they think, what cultural and social boundaries the, had and you put that in correlation with major historical events you will know what may happened and what is a pure fiction . Also , if you look carefully you can find a lot of inconsistencies and illogical things in these "histories" ( like kambun uechi learnt herbal medicine , if he did , why he didn't work as a doctor, that was one of the best payed jobs at the time . If he did , how could he afford it ? That kind of training was extremely expensive ?From whom did learnt , it is not likely that some chinese doctor would teach him that stuff and creaet a competition , in thous days any kind of trade and knowledge would stay in a family , outsiders were taught only if they come from higher social level and couldn't be refused and of course for serious amount of money . What was the purpose if he planed to go back to Okinawa where plant life if totally different from Fujian .ect) . One more thing "pokes the eye " , how it is possible that all styles founders of any given styles had such a personalty that they can be used as moral and ethical etalons , they were perfect in every way . How is that possible ? MA history is a field that requires some serious, professional research or we will stuck with these stories which are nothing more than simple marketing .

 

[Vajramusti]

Odd that you think only eastern martial stories are full of xxxx

 

[Minghe]

Patrick McCarthy interpreted Karate History. There is a great difference between interpretation and research and all History is interpretation influenced by the view of its researcher!

 

[zuti car]

Odd that you think only eastern martial stories are full of xxxx

I don't have any interest in Ma history of western or other arts , so i really don't know. I believe it is same everywhere

 

[K-man]

Patrick McCarthy interpreted Karate History. There is a great difference between interpretation and research and all History is interpretation influenced by the view of its researcher!

Have you read the Bubishi? Do you know what Patrick McCarthy did in his research to enable the translation?

 

[K-man]

Martial history is complete ******** , Chinese MA , Japanese , Korean MA. These stories cannot be called histories by any standard .

That would be your opinion. Have you ever visited Dr Tetsuhiro Hokama in Naha? You might be surprised by the material he has available and yes he really is a PhD doctor.

Martial "histories" are mixture of desires , legends , folk stories , sometimes politics but they do not have almost any truth in them. You said the best way to study martial history is to research martial literature and that is completely wrong.

If we are talking about the origins of the Chinese martial arts over the past 1000 years I can agree with you but once the East was opened up for trade with Europe the recording of history is much more complete and accurate. When we get to the past hundred to two hundred years it is even more complete.

People on the east write :histories: to promote their arts , to inspire young students , sometimes to present desired ethics within the style . Presentation of the facts , true facts of the past events ,what history is on the west and that is how we understand that term, is usually the last priority on the east and again , portion of the truth is MA "history" can be measured on , 0,001 scale .

In modern times we have books and documents from many masters who have written first hand accounts. Unfortunately a lot of historical items in Okinawa were lost with the destruction during WWII when there was barely one stone left standing on another. I am sure that many histories have been embellished but to state that all the history is flawed is implausible.

One more important thing is , no one ever did real scientific research in the field of martial arts , what we have are old people's stories , nothing else.

Have you seen any of Patrick McCarthy's research? If not sure you can have 'scientific' research in the area of history. I would more go for the term rigorous or thorough research and I'm sure that is what McCarthy has provided.

If you want to research martial history you have to research , social , political, cultural and all other aspect of the specific society ( in case of karate , Okinawan and Chinese as well) . When you understand how these people lived , how did they think, what cultural and social boundaries the, had and you put that in correlation with major historical events you will know what may happened and what is a pure fiction .

And that I believe is covered above.

Also , if you look carefully you can find a lot of inconsistencies and illogical things in these "histories" ( like kambun uechi learnt herbal medicine , if he did , why he didn't work as a doctor, that was one of the best payed jobs at the time . If he did , how could he afford it ? That kind of training was extremely expensive ?From whom did learnt , it is not likely that some chinese doctor would teach him that stuff and creaet a competition , in thous days any kind of trade and knowledge would stay in a family , outsiders were taught only if they come from higher social level and couldn't be refused and of course for serious amount of money . What was the purpose if he planed to go back to Okinawa where plant life if totally different from Fujian .ect) .

I'm not particularly interested in Kanbun Uechi and what he did or did not do. However there is a lot of medical advice including herbal medicine in the Bubishi. Obviously as that had been handed down and copied from one generation to another it shows at least that type of understanding extends back at least 150 years or more and that covers the time in which karate was developed.

One more thing "pokes the eye " , how it is possible that all styles founders of any given styles had such a personalty that they can be used as moral and ethical etalons , they were perfect in every way . How is that possible ? MA history is a field that requires some serious, professional research or we will stuck with these stories which are nothing more than simple marketing .

I'm not sure anyone has put up the different 'founders' of styles as 'moral and ethical etalons' or that they were perfect in every way. (BTW. Interesting use of the word etalon.) However, to understand these guys. I think probably none of them set out to found anything. They had students who wished to learn from them and for those who were successful, their students established the styles. Remember, we are only talking about a handful of people here, not even dozens.

Now again you have made numerous statements that fly in the face of all the available information and literature. Do you have anything to back up your position or is it just a case of 'everyone knows'?

 

[zuti car]

Simply , you believe in first had written accounts of the masters , I don't. People have agendas , they change stuff for a number of reasons ( money, prestige , status in a community ...), when Kambun's son who is making a living fro his father's karate write a beautiful and romantic story and call it hisitory , i don't believe it . When Goju ryu people make claims about their founder , I don't believe it , there is no evidence to support any of these stories , most of the people from"china" cannot be found anywhere , like leung bik story in wing chun , and even if they are really existed there is no profe these karate people actually ever met them .It is a pure marketing . About karate its self, it it obvious that it has chinese roots but it is also obvious that people who brought it to Okinawa had insufficient training ( like many of karate people say, they cut out the unnecessary things ) Material evidence is something that not lies , some accounts by third parties that can be verified from other sources . Martial arts history is a secret no matter what time frame we are talking about , 50 years ago or 2000 years ago . I live among Chinese for quite some time , I know their culture pretty well and when we talk about martial history , I know how and why are things the way they are . About my sources, I have to disappoint you, my literature is back in my country , I couldn't afford to bring all that stuff , there is more 300 kg of history books ( although I miss my LP record collection more ) , Maybe next time when I go to my hometown I can make a list of books , but that will not be any time soon . At this point I am stopping to talk about karate , it is not my area of interest and there is no point to continue , you have your opinion I have mine , you believe you are right and I have no problem with that , you may believe in any history version you like or find most probable by your standards .

 

[Minghe]

Have you read the Bubishi? Do you know what Patrick McCarthy did in his research to enable the translation?

Have you K-Man?

To answer very simply ... Yes I have read it all four version he published including the first two which were private publications. i have read Alexander's as well as well as several others ........ all written by Karate Stylist's interpreting a Fuzhou Chinese art Text from a modern day perspective and viewpoint of the arts which in itself is interesting since the text is is in an older Chinese hanzi and with meanings pertaining to the time it was written and not the present day.

In addition I have several copies of my own: