Martial Art or Theory?

[zuti car]

What is the left hand of Chung doing? Holding, pressing, pulling? Is he punching with body structure or is he stepping forward and pressuring with his body as well? Is he redirecting yet yeilding due to the pressure applied by Oram? All will change how one will respond?

Pushing most probably . I have never heard about any body structure concept in TWC and I did practicing it for a lot of time . He is redirecting but not yielding

 

[zuti car]

During history , people who had same problems often had found similar or identical solution . It is possible that in particular time period , martial arts on south of china evolved in similar manner and developed pretty much the same concepts . On the other hand , matching concepts between white crane and wing chun are more than coincidence . I believe that wing chun started as substyle of white crane and later evolved in what we have today . Today , we cannot say they are the same art , but i am not sure that was a case 150 years ago .

 

[geezer]

During history , people who had same problems often had found similar or identical solution . It is possible that in particular time period , martial arts on south of china evolved in similar manner and developed pretty much the same concepts . On the other hand , matching concepts between white crane and wing chun are more than coincidence . I believe that wing chun started as substyle of white crane and later evolved in what we have today . Today , we cannot say they are the same art , but i am not sure that was a case 150 years ago .

This is as good or better a theory than anything I've seen posted by certain "researchers" who frequent these forums. Essentially it is what I tell my students. Namely that before the era of Leung Jan, nothing is certain. There is the instructive "legendary history" of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun, and the more plausible, if less romantic "probable history" which remains somewhat speculative due to the paucity of factual evidence.

IMO the "probable history" is that Wing Chun began as a southern offshoot of Yongchun Bai He, with influences from other southern short-bridge systems such as the Hakka methods. But since the time of Leung Jan, WC has developed a unique character to become a very distinct group of systems. As I practice a branch of the Yip Man lineage, I also emphasize the contributions made by this great grandmaster, as well as the distinct flavor of my old sifu's "WT" branch.

Anyway, it's reassuring to hear that an individual who actually has experience in Crane Boxing shares this view.

Another thing... Since Okinawan Te also has roots in Chinese crane boxing, and Te gave rise to Japanese Karate, which in turn provide the core of TKD, most of us are distant cousins in the same family. Maybe that's why we all bicker so much???

 

[dlcox]

During history , people who had same problems often had found similar or identical solution . It is possible that in particular time period , martial arts on south of china evolved in similar manner and developed pretty much the same concepts . On the other hand , matching concepts between white crane and wing chun are more than coincidence . I believe that wing chun started as substyle of white crane and later evolved in what we have today . Today , we cannot say they are the same art , but i am not sure that was a case 150 years ago .

Very true Zuti. I would also add that the "evolution" of styles is sometimes directly linked with trends. Trends that have nothing to do with martial upgrades or efficiency, but rather the want of popularity, misinterpretation of usage or both. Sometimes evolution is a misperception that is in reality degradation.

 

[geezer]

Very true Zuti. I would also add that the "evolution" of styles is sometimes directly linked with trends. Trends that have nothing to do with martial upgrades or efficiency, but rather the want of popularity, misinterpretation of usage or both. Sometimes evolution is a misperception that is in reality degradation.

This may be true if you mean a "degradation" of practical fighting skills. Evolution through natural selection leads to greater adaptation to a given environment. If the environment doesn't require actual fighting, then you can't expect to evolve superior fighting skills.

 

[dlcox]

Cultural, societal and social pressures can have a great influence on how a martial art is approached and utilized. These factors aren't always a positive influence on the actual "combat" efficiency of an art.

 

[dlcox]

This may be true if you mean a "degradation" of practical fighting skills. Evolution through natural selection leads to greater adaptation to a given environment. If the environment doesn't require actual fighting, then you can't expect to evolve superior fighting skills.

Correct that is what I was referring to.

 

[Vajramusti]

This is as good or better a theory than anything I've seen posted by certain "researchers" who frequent these forums. Essentially it is what I tell my students. Namely that before the era of Leung Jan, nothing is certain. There is the instructive "legendary history" of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun, and the more plausible, if less romantic "probable history" which remains somewhat speculative due to the paucity of factual evidence.

IMO the "probable history" is that Wing Chun began as a southern offshoot of Yongchun Bai He, with influences from other southern short-bridge systems such as the Hakka methods. But since the time of Leung Jan, WC has developed a unique character to become a very distinct group of systems. As I practice a branch of the Yip Man lineage, I also emphasize the contributions made by this great grandmaster, as well as the distinct flavor of my old sifu's "WT" branch.

Anyway, it's reassuring to hear that an individual who actually has experience in Crane Boxing shares this view.

Another thing... Since Okinawan Te also has roots in Chinese crane boxing, and Te gave rise to Japanese Karate, which in turn provide the core of TKD, most of us are distant cousins in the same family. Maybe that's why we all bicker so much???

 

[Vajramusti]

You mention the Hakkas. I wonder about their role in wing chun. I know that they influenced some versions of southern mantis. The puzzle is that true hakka practitioners were very secretive and insular about sharing info with
most south china people.
A now deceased friend was a protégé of the best mantis master in he US was back east but has been in Minnesota for many years. The master kept things to himself. The friend share his jows with me. Hakkas migrate a lot often have restaurants. My home town Kolkata has many Hakkas.A liitle Hakka art is there but not any good wing chun. If I was interested in money I could have done the chain store thing in India.I get requests to teach there from time to time.

 

[Vajramusti]

I was referring to Gin Foon mark in Minn-- NOT Haywood( I bought something from him) or Poo Yee( I have met him)

 

[zuti car]

Another thing... Since Okinawan Te also has roots in Chinese crane boxing, and Te gave rise to Japanese Karate, which in turn provide the core of TKD, most of us are distant cousins in the same family. Maybe that's why we all bicker so much???

Actually , Okinawian arts have their roots in Wuzu quan , not White Crane , but that is another story . I don't see any Crane in any karate stile .

 

[zuti car]

You mention the Hakkas. I wonder about their role in wing chun. I know that they influenced some versions of southern mantis. The puzzle is that true hakka practitioners were very secretive and insular about sharing info with
most south china people.
A now deceased friend was a protégé of the best mantis master in he US was back east but has been in Minnesota for many years. The master kept things to himself. The friend share his jows with me. Hakkas migrate a lot often have restaurants. My home town Kolkata has many Hakkas.A liitle Hakka art is there but not any good wing chun. If I was interested in money I could have done the chain store thing in India.I get requests to teach there from time to time.

I am not sure about their role in Wing Chun creation , but Hakka people have significant role in almost every war , rebellion , political turmoil in China , often leading people in thous events . It is also important to say that White Crane is also considered as Hakka art . There are a lot of Hakka people on Taiwan , but they never open martial schools and keep their MA for them self

 

[dlcox]

Actually , Okinawian arts have their roots in Wuzu quan , not White Crane , but that is another story . I don't see any Crane in any karate stile .

The hand work of Wuzu Quan is based on White Crane. It only accounts for 1/5 of Wuzu but is an important element. Many styles of Wuzu are actually referred to as Yongchun Wuzu, there is even He Yang Wuzu. He Yang's method is based on Crane as is Liu's. But I can see where you are coming from, many Karate styles have more emphasis on the Taizu aspects of Wuzu Quan than Crane. Another interesting tidbit is that prior to Taijiquan being introduced to the south, many Crane styles had a harder approach. Only within the last 100 - 125 years or so has Crane become soft and short hand based. Older Fujian crane methods like Fei He Quan are considered harder and long limbed methods. This holds true to He Yang as well, which was an old name for Xiajia Quan ( Hop Gar).

 

[zuti car]

The hand work of Wuzu Quan is based on White Crane. It only accounts for 1/5 of Wuzu but is an important element. Many styles of Wuzu are actually referred to as Yongchun Wuzu, there is even He Yang Wuzu. He Yang's method is based on Crane as is Liu's. But I can see where you are coming from, many Karate styles have more emphasis on the Taizu aspects of Wuzu Quan than Crane. Another interesting tidbit is that prior to Taijiquan being introduced to the south, many Crane styles had a harder approach. Only within the last 100 - 125 years or so has Crane become soft and short hand based. Older Fujian crane methods like Fei He Quan are considered harder and long limbed methods. This holds true to He Yang as well, which was an old name for Xiajia Quan ( Hop Gar).

There are a lot of older versions of White Crane on Taiwan and they are harder and have " long hands" . Again , these styles have very little similarities with karate

 

[dlcox]

There are a lot of older versions of White Crane on Taiwan and they are harder and have " long hands" . Again , these styles have very little similarities with karate

Agree, Though there may be some Crane influence in certain branches of Karate I would not consider it a major one overall. Too many other influences that have changed the dynamics. I also think it interesting that many of the old Taiwanese Crane methods are hard & long limbed methods. IMO this lends credence to the legend that what Fang Qi Niang taught was Sanshi based and was used to refine and elevate long fist methods into something new.

 

[zuti car]

Agree, Though there may be some Crane influence in certain branches of Karate I would not consider it a major one overall. Too many other influences that have changed the dynamics. I also think it interesting that many of the old Taiwanese Crane methods are hard & long limbed methods. IMO this lends credence to the legend that what Fang Qi Niang taught was Sanshi based and was used to refine and elevate long fist methods into something new.

I don't believe in Fang Qi Niang story . Long fist methods are natural consequence of military technology and tactics of the time . We have to aware that martial arts was reserved for military , and military used heavy armors for the most part of the history . It is very hard to use short fist method if you wear a heavy armor . Also , training was focused on weapons , not empty hands . We have "explosion" of empty hands , short bridge methods only in the second half of 19th century when heavy armors became obsolete . Of course , new methods were based in older martial styles and White Crane have its root is some old long fist method .

 

[dlcox]

I don't believe in Fang Qi Niang story . Long fist methods are natural consequence of military technology and tactics of the time . We have to aware that martial arts was reserved for military , and military used heavy armors for the most part of the history . It is very hard to use short fist method if you wear a heavy armor . Also , training was focused on weapons , not empty hands . We have "explosion" of empty hands , short bridge methods only in the second half of 19th century when heavy armors became obsolete . Of course , new methods were based in older martial styles and White Crane have its root is some old long fist method .

Very true, I can relate to what you are saying though I would disagree with your view on Fang Qi Niang. Personally I don't put her as early in time as she is most often attributed to. I think the legend is much newer and occurred in early 19th century & that she only laid a foundation. I believe her husband actually is the one who "developed" the art. To me this makes more sense as it was right before the height of unrest and there was a ban on martial arts ordered by the Qing. They would have to have focused on boxing because to get caught with a weapon would be punishable by death. It would also make sense why they would have practiced in a temple, less eyes looking at them. Plus the Qing had a had time enforcing laws in the rebellious south. But these are just stories and cannot be verified. Makes more sense to focus on facts of times than to make assumptions of what could have been. Every legend has a kernel of truth, had part is knowing what kernel is the truthful one. So stories are told to fill in gaps.

 

[K-man]

Actually , Okinawian arts have their roots in Wuzu quan , not White Crane , but that is another story . I don't see any Crane in any karate stile .

And there is the theory that Wuzu itself only developed in the 1800s.

 

[geezer]

And there is the theory that Wuzu itself only developed in the 1800s.

That seems more likely to me than the much earlier dates sometimes given. Since Wuzu Quan or Ngo Cho Kuen uses crane hands, it logically has to have developed after the emergence of White Crane. And, although I admit ignorance, when I watch youtube clips of Ngo Cho, it's hand techs. seem to look a lot like some of the Crane clips out there.

And as far as Zuti's comments about not seeing any crane in karate, I agree. Nor do I see a dog's paws on a seal. But in each case they do have a common ancestor.

 

[zuti car]

And there is the theory that Wuzu itself only developed in the 1800s.

That is true and karate is no older than 1880's no mater what okinawian katare people may say . At the time , end of 19th and beginning of 20th century , okinawian people went to work to Fujian , much like many Philippines Thay and Indonesian people are going to Taiwan or Hong Kong today . There they learned arts they could afford to pay and would be accepted in schools . White Crane was pretty much out of their social and financial level , reserved for rich people . What they had learned they brought back and combine it among them self and adapting it to their own needs and perspective .