Mark Bishop's Okinawan Karate: Teachers, Styles, and Secret Techniques

[Bill Mattocks]

It also depends on when you studied with Shimabuku. There are some who claim and still teach the traditional horizontal punch that Shimabuku put back in at one time. Also, look at footage of Shimabuku and he didn't always do the "snapping punch either".

Look at his Seisan:

Look at his Wansu:

The "snap" at the beginning of Seisan isn't a snap at all, it is 2 seperate techniques. The vertical punch and then it goes into chudan uke. So there are also schools of Isshin Ryu that don't use the "snap punch" but thrust with their vertical punch.

So what you have is a BUNCH of different organizations based on WHEN each person studied with Shimabuku. Since they were all there only short periods of time, and it was during constant revision and refinement, each person has a very different view of what IsshinRyu is.

I'm sure that is all true. I'm not sure how it affects me as a student - or how it should. Frankly, I am interested in it from a historical perspective, but from the political perspective, I really could not possibly care less. I listen to furious arguments about Migami versus Misugami, and I'm thinking, Who the frick cares? If people can argue about the name of the Goddess on the Isshinryu patch, they've got issues, and I'm certainly not going to get involved.

I like the Isshinryu I'm being taught - authentic or not. I compare our kata to the videos you refer to and they look the same. I see a lot of Youtube videos of Isshinryu katas that look nothing like what we do. So I'm pretty comfortable - if what I am being taught is not 'right', it at least corresponds to what Master Shimabuku was doing at one point. And Master Mitchum comes to our dojo with some regularity - he has not had cause to complain that I'm aware of (I have not yet met him, but this is what I'm told). If we're doing it wrong, we have a lot of company.

And frankly, I like the Gojuryu aspects of Isshinryu as much or more than the Shorinryu. I like the 'hard-soft' parts, though I've noticed that modern-day Goju tends to emphasize the 'hard' much more. In some ways, I feel we've preserved the 'hard-soft' ways of Goju better than Goju has. Just an observation from a newbie, take it for what it may be worth.

 

[chinto]

http://www.amazon.com/Okinawan-Karate-Teachers-Styles-Techniques/dp/0804832056

I've been reading this book and enjoying it a lot. I am wondering if any other members of read it. What do you think of it?

IMO, this seems like a pretty good book. Mr. Bishop took the time to interview so many different Old Okinawan Karate Masters, the history and insight they provide is very informative. Some arts just don't have a lot of coverage, however. Like Isshinryu. Weird, that's a very popular style of Okinawan karate.

I have had a copy for about 4 years now. its a great book and a great resource! I would suggest it is one of the more important books for any Okinawan stylist to own.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I have a copy of the 2nd edition and its not a bad book to have in the library. Easy to read and understand. We are making it required reading in my dojo.

 

[Makalakumu]

It is interesting to note that most of the Shorin kata, including the ones that Ankoh Itosu created, are practiced in extant Te systems. One would think that a Te system that traces it's lineage back to the Okinawan Monarchy would have very little connection with the karate that Itosu practiced and reformulated.

 

[punisher73]

I'm sure that is all true. I'm not sure how it affects me as a student - or how it should. Frankly, I am interested in it from a historical perspective, but from the political perspective, I really could not possibly care less. I listen to furious arguments about Migami versus Misugami, and I'm thinking, Who the frick cares? If people can argue about the name of the Goddess on the Isshinryu patch, they've got issues, and I'm certainly not going to get involved.

I like the Isshinryu I'm being taught - authentic or not. I compare our kata to the videos you refer to and they look the same. I see a lot of Youtube videos of Isshinryu katas that look nothing like what we do. So I'm pretty comfortable - if what I am being taught is not 'right', it at least corresponds to what Master Shimabuku was doing at one point. And Master Mitchum comes to our dojo with some regularity - he has not had cause to complain that I'm aware of (I have not yet met him, but this is what I'm told). If we're doing it wrong, we have a lot of company.

And frankly, I like the Gojuryu aspects of Isshinryu as much or more than the Shorinryu. I like the 'hard-soft' parts, though I've noticed that modern-day Goju tends to emphasize the 'hard' much more. In some ways, I feel we've preserved the 'hard-soft' ways of Goju better than Goju has. Just an observation from a newbie, take it for what it may be worth.

That was the point I was trying to make, it is interesting from a historical point of view to see how things were refined and changed. BUT, as long as you are happy with what you are doing there is no need to get into the political mud slinging to try and prove your flavor is the best. Like you said, they almost all look the same and are VERY recognizable to each other.

BTW, I do believe that Mitchum was one of the few who made trips back to Okinawa to study with Tatsuo and actually taught in one of his dojos while stationed in Okinawa.

 

[TimoS]

It is interesting to note that most of the Shorin kata, including the ones that Ankoh Itosu created, are practiced in extant Te systems. One would think that a Te system that traces it's lineage back to the Okinawan Monarchy would have very little connection with the karate that Itosu practiced and reformulated.

Not quite sure what you mean by this. Care to elaborate?

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Not quite sure what you mean by this. Care to elaborate?

I was wondering that also

 

[Makalakumu]

Not quite sure what you mean by this. Care to elaborate?

An example used in the book is Motobu Ryu. This system was passed down through Choyu Motobu, who, as far as I have learned, had no connection with Ankoh Itosu. Yet, the book shows that the Pinan kata are part of the set they learn. How did that happen? Does this mean the kata were adopted? If so, then is this really a classical Okinawan Te system?

 

[TimoS]

An example used in the book is Motobu Ryu. This system was passed down through Choyu Motobu, who, as far as I have learned, had no connection with Ankoh Itosu. Yet, the book shows that the Pinan kata are part of the set they learn. How did that happen? Does this mean the kata were adopted? If so, then is this really a classical Okinawan Te system?

Ok. I think you are confusing the two totally separate Motobu styles, what is currently known as Motobu Udundi and Choki Motobu's karate. Although nowadays the head of both of styles is the same person, Chosei Motobu, Choki Motobu's son, they are still two very different fighting methods.

 

[punisher73]

An example used in the book is Motobu Ryu. This system was passed down through Choyu Motobu, who, as far as I have learned, had no connection with Ankoh Itosu. Yet, the book shows that the Pinan kata are part of the set they learn. How did that happen? Does this mean the kata were adopted? If so, then is this really a classical Okinawan Te system?

The "original method" of Motobu-Ryu did not have katas. It was only taught to the first born male in the family to be passed down. Choki Motobu was not the eldest son and only learned bits of his family's art. Motobu studied under other okinawan masters and applied what he learned and came up with some of his own theories on it. Choki Motobu did have and teach katas, his most notable kata was Naihanchi.

Today, Chosei (Choki's son) teaches what he learned from his father.

 

[Makalakumu]

The above two posts explain a lot. Some of what the book said is exactly that. However, the art in the book that I am talking about, the Motobu Ryu of Choyu NOT Chokki, the Motobu Ryu that is an indigenous Te system, the writer stated that this art practiced several of the Shorin katas, including the Pinans. I don't know if Te systems are supposed to have katas at all, so my question about the inclusion of the Pinans despite no connection with Itosu may be moot. It is explained by the fact that grandson is now the head of both systems. Perhaps he altered them and added them.

 

[twendkata71]

Isn't there a Motobu Ryu that is taught here in the states that did adopt kata into its curriculum? I remember reading about this in the mid 80's in black belt magazine. Maybe this also is the Motobu ryu karate of Motobu Chokki, instead of the Ti style.
And before he passed away Uehara was the head of the Motobu ryu Ti on Okinawa. I don't remember ever hearing that Motobu Chokki's son Chosei taking over as head of the Motobu ryu ti style after Uehara Seikichi passed away.
He is the head of the Motobu ryu karate style, which is not the same thing. Eventhough several elements of his family's ti are added. Perhaps because Motobu Chokki was only taught small elements of his family's ti system. Since his brother inherited the complete system according to tradition that it only be passed to the eldest son.
I have read that Uehara did add some kata type exercises to the Motobu ryu ti, but not pinan kata.
Perhaps the article you are talking about is about the Motobu ryu karate style, which is Motobu Chokki's style he taught, and not the Family ti style.
Since I have not studied either, I cannot say for sure, I can only go by what I have read on the subject.

 

[Ray B]

Here is a disscussion we had at another board regarding Motobu-ryu (starts @ post #19):
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41484&highlight=motobu-ryu&page=2

As per Classical Fighting Arts Issue, Vol. 2 No. 11 (issue#34), page 49, translated by Kiko Asai Ferreira, edited by Feliciano Ferreia and Charles Goodin. "Choki Motobu's son, Chosei Motobu, asked Kiko Asai Ferreira, to work under his direct supervision, and make English translations of the lost interviews. We present those translations here, followed by comments by Chosei Motobu, who carries on the traditions of Motobu-Ryu (from his father, Choki Motobu) and Motobu-Ryu Udunte (from his uncle, Choyu Motobu, as taught to him by Seikichi Uehara)."

Choki's teachers included Matsumura, Matsumora and Itosu among others.

Peace.

 

[Uchinanchu]

I would'nt waste the time it takes to wipe my nose (or my backside, for that matter)with the pages of Bishop's book. His arrogance is only surpassed by his ignorance.

 

[Makalakumu]

I would'nt waste the time it takes to wipe my nose (or my backside, for that matter)with the pages of Bishop's book. His arrogance is only surpassed by his ignorance.

Why do you think that? What's the deal?

 

[twendkata71]

I would think that he believes that because, Mr. Bishop is primarily a Ti practitioner who also trained in Shorin ryu and Goju ryu. Many of the interviews and opinions about the karate styles were short or incomplete. Not giving the whole picture about these karate styles.
And he does come across as a bit arrogant, or close minded at times in the book. Still he did do a lot of interviewing of the old masters that were still alive at that time.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I would'nt waste the time it takes to wipe my nose (or my backside, for that matter)with the pages of Bishop's book. His arrogance is only surpassed by his ignorance.

I have noticed the arrogant tone in several spots. Really its not the #1 choice but not totally worthless IMO.

 

[twendkata71]

The book did have several good contacts on Okinawa, many of which I used to do my own research. I must admit though, calling Okinawa his very expensive. I did however enjoy talking to the gentleman that runs/ran the Shureido store in Naha. very nice gentleman, spoke pretty good english as well. If I had the money I would go to Okinawa to buy products there at the store, Much cheaper to buy them directly there. You wouldn't have the tariff taxes that you have here when it comes into the country. With the Shureido KC-10 costing almost $200.00 here, it only cost about $85.00 there and with your name / and or style embroidered on it. The shuriedo embroidered black belts are much cheaper as well there. About $54.00 there, as opposed to $124.00 here. Sorry a bit off topic. I still have a copy of Bishops first edition.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Just a note on pricing with Shureido. 2 years ago someone brought back 2 Shureido K-10 Gi's for me from Okinawa and they were $135 each embroidered on the chest, lapal and pants.

 

[Todd]

I would'nt waste the time it takes to wipe my nose (or my backside, for that matter)with the pages of Bishop's book. His arrogance is only surpassed by his ignorance.

FWIW, karate researcher Mario McKenna had this to say about Bishop's book on another forum:

I remember as well how much I liked Mark Bishops' book "Okinawan Karate - Teachers, Styles and Secret Techniques" before I moved to Japan. There was simply no quality information on Okinawa Karate in English at that time (mid-1980's). However, after moving to Japan I was quite surprised to notice some stark similarities between the information presented, and the style summaries provided by each Association / Dojo head written in the Uechi-ryu Karate History book edited by Takamiyagi Shigeru. Its was an interesting coincidence.​

I did however enjoy talking to the gentleman that runs/ran the Shureido store in Naha. very nice gentleman, spoke pretty good english as well. If I had the money I would go to Okinawa to buy products there at the store, Much cheaper to buy them directly there. You wouldn't have the tariff taxes that you have here when it comes into the country. With the Shureido KC-10 costing almost $200.00 here, it only cost about $85.00 there and with your name / and or style embroidered on it.

IIRC, I paid about 15,000 yen at Shureido's Naha store for my last KC-10 a couple years back (with the style and my name embroidered on it - size 5). That translates to $156 USD right now, and I do believe the US store prices vary with the exchange rate.