Mantis Kung Fu

[Xue Sheng]

Not contributing much to the conversation. But I just remembered one of the coolest beatings I ever took while sparing was from a Southern Mantis guy

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Not contributing much to the conversation. But I just remembered one of the coolest beatings I ever took while sparing was from a Southern Mantis guy

What was most memorable about it? I would like to hear what you got from it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

What was most memorable about it? I would like to hear what you got from it.

It was 30 years ago. All I can tell you is he was fast and when knocked down he popped back up like a weeble.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not contributing much to the conversation. But I just remembered one of the coolest beatings I ever took while sparing was from a Southern Mantis guy

Do you think the southern PM has better power generation than the northern PM has?

The northern PM is fast. but the power generation is not that impressed. The southern PM looks more like white crane that has better power generation.

The northern 6-harmony PM has good power generation. But I believe the power generation came from the 6-harmony system.

The 6-harmony PM is not as fast as the 7-star PM, but more powerful than 7-star PM. The speed and power generation trad off can be seen clearly.

 

[CMyers0323]

You may talk about this form. I don't know this form. But it has a lot of the same moves as the 1st PM Bong Bu form That I have learned. The last 5 moves toward the ending are exactly the same as the Bong Bu.

That might be it. I have a book on it but they only show the techniques 9 deffensive and 9 offensive technique so it's possible it's related. The only technique I remember off hand is Grinding hand which I believe was a sort of slice block

 

[CMyers0323]

Some forms are ubiquitous in southern CMA. You may see Tam Tui in a variety of schools. You may see Sarm Bo Jin, or Fu Hok in a variety of schools as well.

Yeah I have a LF form In the Chuan Fa class I took/ teach so it seems to be fairly varied or wide spread to some degree

 

[Flying Crane]

I think I understand why you gave the advice you did. I do believe it was the better way of saying it. As usual your writing is far more articulate and properly thought out. I don’t mean to bludgeon with my pedigree. I just use it as an example.

Not bludgeoning at all, at least not me anyways. I don’t have any words of caution for you, I know your training is quality.

The fellow I was responding to, from some things he said gave me the impression that he might be fairly new in his training, and I’m not at all certain of his sources, maybe has jumped around after only short stints of study and training. Almost got the impression he might be figuring this out for himself through various online sources or something, but maybe I’m wrong.

Beginners often get that smorgasbord appetite, they see all the different styles and they want to do it all. I went through that phase myself. I like to point out that one often gets better results through focused (consistent) training, rather than getting too broad and shallow. But of course we all need to do that for a while before we can see the truth in it. Some people are able to effectively blend multiple styles, but in my opinion, most are not, they lack the depth of understanding and the experience to make wise decisions and don’t know where to draw the lines and when to NOT mix.

 

[CMyers0323]

I wanted to comment on this, speaking as someone who trains an animal style and has also benefitted from training in several other styles over the years.

First, I would like to ask you what is the length and depth of your training in the martial arts as a whole, and in the Chinese methods specifically. This would be useful information for me and would help me understand the likely level of how you are understanding this training.

I find that people often focus on specific techniques as what defines a style, and in particular the animal styles. To some extent this can be true, but isn’t a good way of looking at it as very few (if any) techniques are truly unique to one style or other. For example while we call it by another name, we in Tibetan White Crane have clawing techniques that would be quite at home in a tiger style. I am sure other styles, including non-crane animal styles have one-legged “crane stances” and various crane beak and crane head punches as well, which incidentally, we make little use of.

A better way to understand what differentiates one style from another (animal or otherwise) is in how the style goes about training its fundamentals, power generation, delivery of technique, etc. Often a style will have drills and practices that are unique to that style, that are meant to develop punching power, for example. There is a theory upon which those drills are built, that leads to powerful techniques. But in the end, that punch is still a punch and isn’t otherwise different from what might commonly be found in other systems. It is in how one works to develop that powerful punch, that identifies the style. Combat is not otherwise meant to be stylized to meet some presentation of the animal through mimicry or use of animal-like techniques. Combat can look like anything, but as long as you are delivering your technique according to the theory upon which your style is built, then you are using your style even if an uneducated eye is unable to distinguish that technique from how a practitioner of another style might deliver it.

Consistency is very important in the practice of martial arts. Repetition is what trains the body to move quickly, powerfully, efficiently, and spontaneously in ways that are effective in a combative encounter. This is where people get into trouble by mixing and matching elements of different styles. Those elements may be designed to work from different theories, and manifest differently in the physical practice, so when you practice multiple systems that operate on conflicting theories that create conflicting manifestations, you undermine and hamstring all of it because you aren’t keeping your practice consistent. It is like deciding you wish to drive to the next town up the highway, but you can’t decide what route you want to take so you get part way there and then go back to the beginning and start down a new route, and when you get part way there you do it again. You never reach your destination in this way. The destination is useful martial skill and any style can get you there if you stay consistent in your practice. But if you practice multiple styles with conflicting theories, none of them become powerful and useful. You fail to develop real skill with any of them and only develop a superficial skill that doesn’t get you very far.

So this is becoming a bit long-winded, but what I am trying to do is comment on what you said about switching from one style to another when sparring, to confuse your training partner. I think what is more likely is that you confuse yourself because you are inconsistent with your training. It may be a bit confusing for your training partners at first, but it eventually they see through the smokescreen and recognize that there is little substance there.

Training multiple styles is useful because it helps you see different ways of going about the training. But eventually you need to identify the style that is the best fit for you, and then stick with that one. When you understand it more deeply you will recognize that most any technique can be adopted to work with it the foundation of that style, and you can expand your abilities in that way. But you need to be careful about what you mix together because if it cannot function effectively on the foundation that you have built, then you do not want it, it is clutter and is in the way. People always want to add more to their practice and they often fail to recognize that some things, you should not adopt.

I wanted to comment on this, speaking as someone who trains an animal style and has also benefitted from training in several other styles over the years.

First, I would like to ask you what is the length and depth of your training in the martial arts as a whole, and in the Chinese methods specifically. This would be useful information for me and would help me understand the likely level of how you are understanding this training.

I find that people often focus on specific techniques as what defines a style, and in particular the animal styles. To some extent this can be true, but isn’t a good way of looking at it as very few (if any) techniques are truly unique to one style or other. For example while we call it by another name, we in Tibetan White Crane have clawing techniques that would be quite at home in a tiger style. I am sure other styles, including non-crane animal styles have one-legged “crane stances” and various crane beak and crane head punches as well, which incidentally, we make little use of.

A better way to understand what differentiates one style from another (animal or otherwise) is in how the style goes about training its fundamentals, power generation, delivery of technique, etc. Often a style will have drills and practices that are unique to that style, that are meant to develop punching power, for example. There is a theory upon which those drills are built, that leads to powerful techniques. But in the end, that punch is still a punch and isn’t otherwise different from what might commonly be found in other systems. It is in how one works to develop that powerful punch, that identifies the style. Combat is not otherwise meant to be stylized to meet some presentation of the animal through mimicry or use of animal-like techniques. Combat can look like anything, but as long as you are delivering your technique according to the theory upon which your style is built, then you are using your style even if an uneducated eye is unable to distinguish that technique from how a practitioner of another style might deliver it.

Consistency is very important in the practice of martial arts. Repetition is what trains the body to move quickly, powerfully, efficiently, and spontaneously in ways that are effective in a combative encounter. This is where people get into trouble by mixing and matching elements of different styles. Those elements may be designed to work from different theories, and manifest differently in the physical practice, so when you practice multiple systems that operate on conflicting theories that create conflicting manifestations, you undermine and hamstring all of it because you aren’t keeping your practice consistent. It is like deciding you wish to drive to the next town up the highway, but you can’t decide what route you want to take so you get part way there and then go back to the beginning and start down a new route, and when you get part way there you do it again. You never reach your destination in this way. The destination is useful martial skill and any style can get you there if you stay consistent in your practice. But if you practice multiple styles with conflicting theories, none of them become powerful and useful. You fail to develop real skill with any of them and only develop a superficial skill that doesn’t get you very far.

So this is becoming a bit long-winded, but what I am trying to do is comment on what you said about switching from one style to another when sparring, to confuse your training partner. I think what is more likely is that you confuse yourself because you are inconsistent with your training. It may be a bit confusing for your training partners at first, but it eventually they see through the smokescreen and recognize that there is little substance there.

Training multiple styles is useful because it helps you see different ways of going about the training. But eventually you need to identify the style that is the best fit for you, and then stick with that one. When you understand it more deeply you will recognize that most any technique can be adopted to work with it the foundation of that style, and you can expand your abilities in that way. But you need to be careful about what you mix together because if it cannot function effectively on the foundation that you have built, then you do not want it, it is clutter and is in the way. People always want to add more to their practice and they often fail to recognize that some things, you should not adopt.

Well I have varying experience in various arts to be honest haha. I started off in JKD and have done that for almost 20 years now around 10 years ago I started Chuan Fa and some at home Wing Chun but mainly through YouTube but for around 8 years I've taken it in classes, the same Sifu also taught me some Bagua, Xing Yi, and some basics in Tai Chi all along with basics in the animals. More so recently I've wanted to get a better mastery over the Animal styles I was Taught some Monkey but also looked into the others Leopard, Snake, Mantis, Crane, Tiger and Dragon. All Basic training.


Yeah I do and don't my main thing currently is to define how they fight so techniques yes does leopard and snake throw a side kick differently? If so what works well and such. But also the tactics like snake using toe kicks and nerve strikes while monkey is more grappling from my experience. Plus I enjoy the more esoteric and "spiritual" aspect of the animal styles.

I do agree there it seems alot of them cross over but I'm sure there could be enough unique techniques or ways of doing them to make a small system atleast I'd hope.

Haha yeah I know what you mean. While I know it's not always best to really define style and to just blend I think a bit of blending and defining is good. As Tiger may be better suited in some senses when a Crane or Snake style may not.


Ah yes that's one big thing I'm all for is power training. From my knowledge Leopard uses more shallow penetrating strikes while Tiger doesn't but also. I've come to believe that if you had mastered just two animal styles if they were truly mastered and you switched from one to the other mid combat it should feel like fighting a different person I mean. If you generate power differently, move (footwork) wise differently, obviously techniques may vary and if you really enjoy the spiritual aspect it all should come together.

Yeah I do agree with that though. In the end it's how things are delivered and used if done correctly.


That's another thing I think is important to know. Everyone wants to cross train but will hardly get into a style enough to use it right. Pick and pull minimal stuff without training it correctly or to its full potential.

I often thought matching styles that tend to be similar work well. For me Monkey having some grappling would work well with Ju Jitsu or Shuai jiao or even Tai Chi.

I have noticed with the many styles I've trained it's more difficult to master them but I've worked a useful schedule to make it work. Combine what styles match and train them together.


Yeah I do agree over all it can have some short comings although I would say I've made some progress with it over the years. But I guess it depends on how often it could be trained or used.

I definitely appreciate the advice on this though. I've found Xing Yi along with Wing Chun tends to be what I like although the animal styles are something I enjoy studying if possible

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some people are able to effectively blend multiple styles, but in my opinion, most are not,

One needs to have good foundation to do that. In another thread, someone said everybody should compete in MMA. But before one can compete in MMA, he will need to build up his foundation first.

Someone said that Bruce Lee didn't want to help any JKD student to build foundation. He preferred his JKD students to build foundation from somewhere else.

How does an MMA guy build up his foundation? Does anybody know? Is there a such thing called "foundation" in MMA?

Here is a clip for developing foundation. I don't believe one can have MA future without going through this training stage.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Do you think the southern PM has better power generation than the northern PM has?

The northern PM is fast. but the power generation is not that impressed. The southern PM looks more like white crane that has better power generation.

The northern 6-harmony PM has good power generation. But I believe the power generation came from the 6-harmony system.

The 6-harmony PM is not as fast as the 7-star PM, but more powerful than 7-star PM. The speed and power generation trad off can be seen clearly.

Couldn't tell you, my only real exposure to mantis was Southern. I can say it was impressive but not as impressive as teh Southern White Crane guy I spared, who also would hop back up as fast as he was knocked down. But it may not be a style thing, the Southern White crane guy was also a US marine

 

[Flying Crane]

Do you think the southern PM has better power generation than the northern PM has?

The northern PM is fast. but the power generation is not that impressed. The southern PM looks more like white crane that has better power generation.

The northern 6-harmony PM has good power generation. But I believe the power generation came from the 6-harmony system.

The 6-harmony PM is not as fast as the 7-star PM, but more powerful than 7-star PM. The speed and power generation trad off can be seen clearly.

Looks kind of like a Tom tui variant, or their version of the same concept.

I suspect northern mantis could increase power by slowing down the movement and developing that aspect by ensuring all parts of the body are moving In Unison and power is coming from the appropriate source. Speed can come later. I think they can be matched together but only if begun slowly. I am saying this while admitting to have essentially no knowledge of northern mantis methods.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Looks kind of like a Tom tui variant, or their version of the same concept.

I suspect northern mantis could increase power by slowing down the movement and developing that aspect by ensuring all parts of the body are moving In Unison and power is coming from the appropriate source. Speed can come later. I think they can be matched together but only if begun slowly. I am saying this while admitting to have essentially no knowledge of northern mantis methods.

It's more like the XingYi. Instead of using 3-7 stance, the LHPM (6 harmony PM) uses 4-6 stance instead. The LHPM like to use the more conservate 4-6 stance. The 7 star PM likes to use the more aggressive monkey stance.

I agree that one should develop body method first before one can get into speed training. The body method training can be the most interested part of the MA training.

 

[Flying Crane]

Haha yeah I know what you mean. While I know it's not always best to really define style and to just blend I think a bit of blending and defining is good. As Tiger may be better suited in some senses when a Crane or Snake style may not.


Ah yes that's one big thing I'm all for is power training. From my knowledge Leopard uses more shallow penetrating strikes while Tiger doesn't but also. I've come to believe that if you had mastered just two animal styles if they were truly mastered and you switched from one to the other mid combat it should feel like fighting a different person I mean. If you generate power differently, move (footwork) wise differently, obviously techniques may vary and if you really enjoy the spiritual aspect it all should come together.

Yeah I do agree with that though. In the end it's how things are delivered and used if done correctly.


That's another thing I think is important to know. Everyone wants to cross train but will hardly get into a style enough to use it right. Pick and pull minimal stuff without training it correctly or to its full potential.

I often thought matching styles that tend to be similar work well. For me Monkey having some grappling would work well with Ju Jitsu or Shuai jiao or even Tai Chi.

I have noticed with the many styles I've trained it's more difficult to master them but I've worked a useful schedule to make it work. Combine what styles match and train them together.


Yeah I do agree over all it can have some short comings although I would say I've made some progress with it over the years. But I guess it depends on how often it could be trained or used.

I definitely appreciate the advice on this though. I've found Xing Yi along with Wing Chun tends to be what I like although the animal styles are something I enjoy studying if possible

There is a difference between an animal style and a style based on, or including, the five animals. I honestly know little about the five animals but my impression is that together they compose a more complete style with each animal composing a portion. I have seen comments similar to what you are making here, attributing specific guidelines to the combat of each animals. Examples are your statements that snake uses toe kicks and nerve strikes while leopard uses shallow penetrating strikes (I’m honestly not sure what “shallow penetrating strike” means, shallow seems to imply that it does not penetrate much). I don’t know how well such statements can be substantiated. If snake uses nerve strikes, why wouldn’t others, if such strikes are attainable by a dedicated practitioner and are effective? Why would snake use toe kicks, are they particularly effective (if so, why doesn’t everyone use them, and how are you defining “toe kick” in the first place?) and would they use other kicks as well? Statements like these seem to me to be based on a romantic notion of what it means to practice an animal style and I always question their accuracy.

Statements that I have seen others make are more centered around the actual personalities of the animals, such as “crane teaches balance and poise, tiger teaches ferocity, leopard teaches quickness and agility” and the like. Perhaps this is so in a five-animals system and maybe in that context the practice of each of the animals are designed to build these attributes. I guess I simply do not have experience with it to comment further.

As someone who practices an animal system (Tibetan white crane) I do not see this kind of statement to be meaningful in our methods. We do not emphasize poise and balance as something to be developed in homage to the crane (of course balance is a good thing regardless, and I would think any quality martial method would help develop balance as a side benefit of the training). We do not put emphasis on the use of the single-leg “crane stance” nor the fingertip “crane beak” strike, that people seem to stereotypically think of when they talk about crane method kung fu. We use rooted stances from which we gain tremendous power, we move quickly when we need to, and we use a variety of mostly closed-fist punches to strike really really hard. We do not try to emulate the crane. Instead, (I believe) inspiration was taken from the crane in recognizing a specific method to drill and develop full-body connection when delivering our techniques, which is where our power comes from. Sometimes people talk about the crane being delicate and graceful. I suppose the bird might be seen that way, although some crane species are quite large at over 5 feet tall, and can be fierce. At any rate, I never really understood what a powerful punch was until I learned Tibetan crane. There is nothing delicate about it, it is raw destructive power.

So maybe the takeaway here is simply that there are various different interpretations of the animals, made by different groups of people in different parts of Asia, at different times. They took inspiration from the same animal but it manifest in different ways for them, and some very different methods were created, all with the same animal name attached. For example, to my knowledge in the crane systems there are Tibetan, Fukien (which has a number of either different crane systems or sub-systems under its banner like calling crane, feeding crane, flying crane; I am not clear on how they all relate to each other), there may be an Ermei crane but I have only barely heard of it, and there is the crane section in the five-animals methods. These are not all the same thing and it is important to understand that if you are talking about attributes of an animal in the context of kung fu, you need to be clear about which method to which you are referring.

I am not sure if I have an actual point that I am trying to make. Maybe I’m just trying to educate a little, on a topic that can be confusing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

May be only the 6 harmonies PM system train both sides equally. I love this kind of left and right training drill.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Not bludgeoning at all, at least not me anyways. I don’t have any words of caution for you, I know your training is quality.

The fellow I was responding to, from some things he said gave me the impression that he might be fairly new in his training, and I’m not at all certain of his sources, maybe has jumped around after only short stints of study and training. Almost got the impression he might be figuring this out for himself through various online sources or something, but maybe I’m wrong.

Beginners often get that smorgasbord appetite, they see all the different styles and they want to do it all. I went through that phase myself. I like to point out that one often gets better results through focused (consistent) training, rather than getting too broad and shallow. But of course we all need to do that for a while before we can see the truth in it. Some people are able to effectively blend multiple styles, but in my opinion, most are not, they lack the depth of understanding and the experience to make wise decisions and don’t know where to draw the lines and when to NOT mix.

That is exactly what I got from your earlier post. I assumed I knew what you meant, and for once I was correct.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I have been in the same style 26 years, I haven’t even come close to mastering it, or any other one for that matter.

 

[Flying Crane]

I have been in the same style 26 years, I haven’t even come close to mastering it, or any other one for that matter.

Yeah tell me about it. We are all just works in progress. People toss around ideas like “if I could just master two or three styles…”. Well ok, have fun, but in my opinion the more likely outcome is frustratingly slow progression that plateaus early. To quote old Mr. Bilbo: “I feel like butter scraped over too much bread.”

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yeah tell me about it. We are all just works in progress. People toss around ideas like “if I could just master two or three styles…”. Well ok, have fun, but in my opinion the more likely outcome is frustratingly slow progression that plateaus early. To quote old Mr. Bilbo: “I feel like butter scraped over too much bread.”

That’s an awesome quote. Too true. How many plateaus have I hit over the years? I still occasionally find something new to me about some motion I’ve been doing for decades. These days I learn a lot from my students. They each have their own unique lens that they see it through. I like it when they challenge an explanation in a way that makes me examine an old thing from a new angle. It keeps it fresh, and keeps me on my toes. I am most grateful for each and every minute they give me. The time, effort, and money they invest in the teaching is very gratifying. To see a student who came to me with no MA experience excel after 7 years of consistent training is truly a gift.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yeah tell me about it. We are all just works in progress. People toss around ideas like “if I could just master two or three styles…”. Well ok, have fun, but in my opinion the more likely outcome is frustratingly slow progression that plateaus early. To quote old Mr. Bilbo: “I feel like butter scraped over too much bread.”

Maybe, it’s that ring…lol

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To see a student who came to me with no MA experience excel after 7 years of consistent training is truly a gift.

That's about the average time for a new student to get his black belt.