Mantis Kung Fu

[CMyers0323]

The PM system is famous in speed.

This is really cool! Hobestly I never saw any of these on YouTube I guess I just didn't have luck haha.

So then in reference to the above mentioned tactic when you pull in the opponents hand and if you were to strike after that would that be PM form of springy energy?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So then in reference to the above mentioned tactic when you pull in the opponents hand and if you were to strike after that would that be PM form of springy energy?

The definition of spring energy can be different between styles.

It's simple physics. When you pull your opponent, either you pull him into you, or you pull yourself into him, the result is the same.

In MA, when you use pulling to help you to move in, you can move in faster than if you just move in without pulling.

 

[CMyers0323]

The definition of spring energy can be different between styles.

It's simple physics. When you pull your opponent, either you pull him into you, or you pull yourself into him, the result is the same.

In MA, when you use pulling to help you to move in, you can move in faster than if you just move in without pulling.

That makes sense I suppose.

Yeah see ive more recently heard of this one. The only other variation I heard of was from Wing Chun. As you step in to punch you bring your arm in a little then launch it forward.

Have you heard of other variations of it as well?

I'm all for learning of these Though and I think this video is pretty interesting on Springy energy

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

from Wing Chun. As you step in to punch you bring your arm in a little then launch it forward. Have you heard of other variations of it as well?

- WC punches from the center of your chest, this way, any incoming straight-line punch will be intercepted.
- PM, long fist, Baji, ... punches from the waist. This way, it can be coordinated with the body rotation.
- Zimen punches from hands drop next to the knee. This way, it's the most natural and shortest path.

It's always better to punch with your body than just to punch with your arm. The day that you can train punch by putting your arms behind your back, the day that you truly understand how to punch - body pull/push arm (silk reeling).

Long fist punch:



Punch with body:



Punch with arm only:

 

[geezer]

If we compare "front cut" to wrestling "single leg", the "front cut" is more effective than the "single leg". Instead of using your hands to reach to your opponent's leading leg, you let your
- hands to do your hand work, and leg to do your leg work.

Yes, I agree, it's more efficient (in theory) ....but more effective? That depends....

Hypothetically, if you can make the single leg takedown actually work against a strongly resisting opponent a higher percentage of the time, then although theoretically less efficient, it is still more effective.

This is the problem I have encountered time and again with some of the Wing Chun I've trained. Theoretically, it's super efficient, but in the rough and tumble mess of practical application, sometimes bigger, less efficient moves prove more workable.

 

[geezer]

Yeah see ive more recently heard of this one. The only other variation I heard of was from Wing Chun. As you step in to punch you bring your arm in a little then launch it forward.

The best Wing Chun I trained was all about "springy energy". Another teacher, originally from the same lineage, showed me how to put whole body power into WC´s short little punches. It's not just "arm punching" ...unless you just train arm punching.

 

[CMyers0323]

- WC punches from the center of your chest, this way, any incoming straight-line punch will be intercepted.
- PM, long fist, Baji, ... punches from the waist. This way, it can be coordinated with the body rotation.
- Zimen punches from hands drop next to the knee. This way, it's the most natural and shortest path.

It's always better to punch with your body than just to punch with your arm. The day that you can train punch by putting your arms behind your back, the day that you truly understand how to punch - body pull/push arm (silk reeling).

Long fist punch:



Punch with body:



Punch with arm only:

That's really cool how they have different punching methods. I would assume the Long Fist video would be similar to how PM and Baji also throw punches then?

I've mainly been taught the Wing Chun way and to throw punches with my body. As far as I've been taught using only the arm tends to be the least effective.


I agree there it always sounds simple but mastering striking still can take a long time.

 

[CMyers0323]

The best Wing Chun I trained was all about "springy energy". Another teacher, originally from the same lineage, showed me how to put whole body power into WC´s short little punches. It's not just "arm punching" ...unless you just train arm punching.

That's cool did you Train it the same way in the above messages/video?

I've been trying to learn springy energy lately and with there being a few versions I'm all for learning more than one.

Yeah I was mainly taught in Wing Chun stepping with punching since it closes the distance and adds power

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

That's really cool how they have different punching methods. I would assume the Long Fist video would be similar to how PM and Baji also throw punches then?

I've mainly been taught the Wing Chun way and to throw punches with my body. As far as I've been taught using only the arm tends to be the least effective.


I agree there it always sounds simple but mastering striking still can take a long time.

Long fist and Baji and PM all shoot from the waist but the way the punch is delivered is different. While I respect @Kung Fu Wang very much, we differ in opinions on how these things are done. I do not like the rising up to shoot the punch in that long fist video. I pull down with the legs and pull with the foot to create the force. This idea of pulling with the foot is more difficult to train than pushing off the ground. No root, no punch, simple as that. I will not train kicks that require lifting the heel on the down leg for the same reasons. Look at differences between Hung Gar horse and WC horse for an example. They are two polar opposites in technique that seek a very similar result. I don’t mean to say one is better, but they are distinctly different. Northern long fist will necessarily differ from Southern Family styles in a similar fashion. Each have their unique characteristics and virtues. In CMA it is a good idea to train various different styles over the years so as to have a well rounded background. Try to learn the various ways of doing things so you don’t get caught up in silly discussions over which way is best. Being able to freely switch up styles and stance can be very useful and difficult for an opponent to follow. That being said, pick the one you like best and become proficient with it before moving on. Patience, dedication and consistency are the key to proficiency. When you feel sick, train, when you feel strong and healthy, train, when you don’t want to, train…

 

[CMyers0323]

Long fist and Baji and PM all shoot from the waist but the way the punch is delivered is different. While I respect @Kung Fu Wang very much, we differ in opinions on how these things are done. I do not like the rising up to shoot the punch in that long fist video. I pull down with the legs and pull with the foot to create the force. This idea of pulling with the foot is more difficult to train than pushing off the ground. No root, no punch, simple as that. I will not train kicks that require lifting the heel on the down leg for the same reasons. Look at differences between Hung Gar horse and WC horse for an example. They are two polar opposites in technique that seek a very similar result. I don’t mean to say one is better, but they are distinctly different. Northern long fist will necessarily differ from Southern Family styles in a similar fashion. Each have their unique characteristics and virtues. In CMA it is a good idea to train various different styles over the years so as to have a well rounded background. Try to learn the various ways of doing things so you don’t get caught up in silly discussions over which way is best. Being able to freely switch up styles and stance can be very useful and difficult for an opponent to follow. That being said, pick the one you like best and become proficient with it before moving on. Patience, dedication and consistency are the key to proficiency. When you feel sick, train, when you feel strong and healthy, train, when you don’t want to, train…

That's interesting I've been taught to shoot from the hip but that's only in the sense of self defense it being more realistic that you don't have a guard up so we always trained with hands at our sides and we're told to shoot like you had a holster loll cool concept so I'm guessing it's similar in that sense



That's very interesting well if your able to make it work then that's great. I always think doing your own thing is a good idea if it works. Yeah I remember thinking originally the WC horse stance was a bit odd but I've grown use to it. I sort of just see it as a style only thing I'm sure each have their own benefits.


Oh yeah I totally agree with varying the styles it's something I enjoy doing and switching during sparring. Haha it's definitely a good tactic to use on someone unexpectedly. But yeah thats partly why I'm trying to learn the animal styles in depth. They all do things differently from punches/kicks/ blocks to how they move and view things. It's good to find the stuff deeply hidden but it's hard as well

I'm all for it I train daily and for as long as I can even if it's just small stuff. Definitely love the advice thanks

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you don't have a guard up ...

You

- drop your arms to invite a face punch.
- raise your arms to invite a groin kick.
- put your arms in front of your belly otherwise. This way, your arms can handle both kick and punch equally.

 

[CMyers0323]

You

- drop your arms to invite a face punch.
- raise your arms to invite a groin kick.
- put your arms in front of your belly otherwise. This way, your arms can handle both kick and punch equally.

View attachment 29786

That's cool. Sounds like Drawing them in what I've learned from Jkd, crane and other styles it's good to do.

Yeah what we did was more or less just making you learn to defend yourself from what would be a neutral position.

Are you familiar with the 18 hands in Mantis? I saw it in Chow Gar but I'm sure it's not limited to that

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Are you familiar with the 18 hands in Mantis?

You may talk about this form. I don't know this form. But it has a lot of the same moves as the 1st PM Bong Bu form That I have learned. The last 5 moves toward the ending are exactly the same as the Bong Bu.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

That's cool. Sounds like Drawing them in what I've learned from Jkd, crane and other styles it's good to do.

Yeah what we did was more or less just making you learn to defend yourself from what would be a neutral position.

Are you familiar with the 18 hands in Mantis? I saw it in Chow Gar but I'm sure it's not limited to that

Some forms are ubiquitous in southern CMA. You may see Tam Tui in a variety of schools. You may see Sarm Bo Jin, or Fu Hok in a variety of schools as well.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here is a good PM speed training - jump up in the air. Throw 3 punches before landing back down on the ground.

 

[Flying Crane]

Oh yeah I totally agree with varying the styles it's something I enjoy doing and switching during sparring. Haha it's definitely a good tactic to use on someone unexpectedly. But yeah thats partly why I'm trying to learn the animal styles in depth. They all do things differently from punches/kicks/ blocks to how they move and view things. It's good to find the stuff deeply hidden but it's hard as well

I wanted to comment on this, speaking as someone who trains an animal style and has also benefitted from training in several other styles over the years.

First, I would like to ask you what is the length and depth of your training in the martial arts as a whole, and in the Chinese methods specifically. This would be useful information for me and would help me understand the likely level of how you are understanding this training.

I find that people often focus on specific techniques as what defines a style, and in particular the animal styles. To some extent this can be true, but isn’t a good way of looking at it as very few (if any) techniques are truly unique to one style or other. For example while we call it by another name, we in Tibetan White Crane have clawing techniques that would be quite at home in a tiger style. I am sure other styles, including non-crane animal styles have one-legged “crane stances” and various crane beak and crane head punches as well, which incidentally, we make little use of.

A better way to understand what differentiates one style from another (animal or otherwise) is in how the style goes about training its fundamentals, power generation, delivery of technique, etc. Often a style will have drills and practices that are unique to that style, that are meant to develop punching power, for example. There is a theory upon which those drills are built, that leads to powerful techniques. But in the end, that punch is still a punch and isn’t otherwise different from what might commonly be found in other systems. It is in how one works to develop that powerful punch, that identifies the style. Combat is not otherwise meant to be stylized to meet some presentation of the animal through mimicry or use of animal-like techniques. Combat can look like anything, but as long as you are delivering your technique according to the theory upon which your style is built, then you are using your style even if an uneducated eye is unable to distinguish that technique from how a practitioner of another style might deliver it.

Consistency is very important in the practice of martial arts. Repetition is what trains the body to move quickly, powerfully, efficiently, and spontaneously in ways that are effective in a combative encounter. This is where people get into trouble by mixing and matching elements of different styles. Those elements may be designed to work from different theories, and manifest differently in the physical practice, so when you practice multiple systems that operate on conflicting theories that create conflicting manifestations, you undermine and hamstring all of it because you aren’t keeping your practice consistent. It is like deciding you wish to drive to the next town up the highway, but you can’t decide what route you want to take so you get part way there and then go back to the beginning and start down a new route, and when you get part way there you do it again. You never reach your destination in this way. The destination is useful martial skill and any style can get you there if you stay consistent in your practice. But if you practice multiple styles with conflicting theories, none of them become powerful and useful. You fail to develop real skill with any of them and only develop a superficial skill that doesn’t get you very far.

So this is becoming a bit long-winded, but what I am trying to do is comment on what you said about switching from one style to another when sparring, to confuse your training partner. I think what is more likely is that you confuse yourself because you are inconsistent with your training. It may be a bit confusing for your training partners at first, but it eventually they see through the smokescreen and recognize that there is little substance there.

Training multiple styles is useful because it helps you see different ways of going about the training. But eventually you need to identify the style that is the best fit for you, and then stick with that one. When you understand it more deeply you will recognize that most any technique can be adopted to work with it the foundation of that style, and you can expand your abilities in that way. But you need to be careful about what you mix together because if it cannot function effectively on the foundation that you have built, then you do not want it, it is clutter and is in the way. People always want to add more to their practice and they often fail to recognize that some things, you should not adopt.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I wanted to comment on this, speaking as someone who trains an animal style and has also benefitted from training in several other styles over the years.

First, I would like to ask you what is the length and depth of your training in the martial arts as a whole, and in the Chinese methods specifically. This would be useful information for me and would help me understand the likely level of how you are understanding this training.

I find that people often focus on specific techniques as what defines a style, and in particular the animal styles. To some extent this can be true, but isn’t a good way of looking at it as very few (if any) techniques are truly unique to one style or other. For example while we call it by another name, we in Tibetan White Crane have clawing techniques that would be quite at home in a tiger style. I am sure other styles, including non-crane animal styles have one-legged “crane stances” and various crane beak and crane head punches as well, which incidentally, we make little use of.

A better way to understand what differentiates one style from another (animal or otherwise) is in how the style goes about training its fundamentals, power generation, delivery of technique, etc. Often a style will have drills and practices that are unique to that style, that are meant to develop punching power, for example. There is a theory upon which those drills are built, that leads to powerful techniques. But in the end, that punch is still a punch and isn’t otherwise different from what might commonly be found in other systems. It is in how one works to develop that powerful punch, that identifies the style. Combat is not otherwise meant to be stylized to meet some presentation of the animal through mimicry or use of animal-like techniques. Combat can look like anything, but as long as you are delivering your technique according to the theory upon which your style is built, then you are using your style even if an uneducated eye is unable to distinguish that technique from how a practitioner of another style might deliver it.

Consistency is very important in the practice of martial arts. Repetition is what trains the body to move quickly, powerfully, efficiently, and spontaneously in ways that are effective in a combative encounter. This is where people get into trouble by mixing and matching elements of different styles. Those elements may be designed to work from different theories, and manifest differently in the physical practice, so when you practice multiple systems that operate on conflicting theories that create conflicting manifestations, you undermine and hamstring all of it because you aren’t keeping your practice consistent. It is like deciding you wish to drive to the next town up the highway, but you can’t decide what route you want to take so you get part way there and then go back to the beginning and start down a new route, and when you get part way there you do it again. You never reach your destination in this way. The destination is useful martial skill and any style can get you there if you stay consistent in your practice. But if you practice multiple styles with conflicting theories, none of them become powerful and useful. You fail to develop real skill with any of them and only develop a superficial skill that doesn’t get you very far.

So this is becoming a bit long-winded, but what I am trying to do is comment on what you said about switching from one style to another when sparring, to confuse your training partner. I think what is more likely is that you confuse yourself because you are inconsistent with your training. It may be a bit confusing for your training partners at first, but it eventually they see through the smokescreen and recognize that there is little substance there.

Training multiple styles is useful because it helps you see different ways of going about the training. But eventually you need to identify the style that is the best fit for you, and then stick with that one. When you understand it more deeply you will recognize that most any technique can be adopted to work with it the foundation of that style, and you can expand your abilities in that way. But you need to be careful about what you mix together because if it cannot function effectively on the foundation that you have built, then you do not want it, it is clutter and is in the way. People always want to add more to their practice and they often fail to recognize that some things, you should not adopt.

It is true that not all things complement one another, but I see some as necessary for holistic training in my method. We train in Yang long Tai chi as well as gung fu. Our gung fu incorporates some western boxing techniques as well. We use various stances, fists, open hand, etc. Our Sigung created the system after training in several CMA styles over a long period of time. Choy li fut, Hung Gar, Ying Jow Pai, Sil Lum, Chow Gar Tong Long Pai, Mok Gar, and others. These all have similar elements and in any case the power comes from the legs and is governed by the waist. Most have some similar foot work with differences in nuance and flavor. Most also have some weaknesses that come with any style. While I don’t recommend switching styles per se, I do think that an external gung fu like Hung Gar is well complemented by an internal like Tai Chi Chuan or Bagua Zhang. We train these concurrently, as that is part of the teaching method. It is not compulsory to train both, but the proof is in the pudding. It’s clearly a benefit to do both. I have students that only do one or the other, and I hav3 students that do both. I certainly feel that I benefited from my time in boxing and in jujitsu. I mean it’s really important to have a focus, but it’s good to have an idea what similar arts are good at to find that niche that speaks to you.

 

[Flying Crane]

It is true that not all things complement one another, but I see some as necessary for holistic training in my method. We train in Yang long Tai chi as well as gung fu. Our gung fu incorporates some western boxing techniques as well. We use various stances, fists, open hand, etc. Our Sigung created the system after training in several CMA styles over a long period of time. Choy li fut, Hung Gar, Ying Jow Pai, Sil Lum, Chow Gar Tong Long Pai, Mok Gar, and others. These all have similar elements and in any case the power comes from the legs and is governed by the waist. Most have some similar foot work with differences in nuance and flavor. Most also have some weaknesses that come with any style. While I don’t recommend switching styles per se, I do think that an external gung fu like Hung Gar is well complemented by an internal like Tai Chi Chuan or Bagua Zhang. We train these concurrently, as that is part of the teaching method. It is not compulsory to train both, but the proof is in the pudding. It’s clearly a benefit to do both. I have students that only do one or the other, and I hav3 students that do both. I certainly feel that I benefited from my time in boxing and in jujitsu. I mean it’s really important to have a focus, but it’s good to have an idea what similar arts are good at to find that niche that speaks to you.

It goes without saying that some people are better at understanding what blends well and what compliments properly. I don’t mean to say that all blending is to be avoided. I know your pedigree.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

what blends well and what compliments properly.

PM blends well with wrestling art. You can use PM fast hands combo to establish bridge in a fist flying situation. You then use your bridge to establish clinch. That will integrate the striking art with the wrestling art.

First I thought the WC or Taiji can be good for that. But both don't emphasize grab/pull as much as the PM does. PM uses the last 3 fingers to pull your opponent's wrist is an excellent idea.

At 1.09.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It goes without saying that some people are better at understanding what blends well and what compliments properly. I don’t mean to say that all blending is to be avoided. I know your pedigree.

I think I understand why you gave the advice you did. I do believe it was the better way of saying it. As usual your writing is far more articulate and properly thought out. I don’t mean to bludgeon with my pedigree. I just use it as an example.