Man shoots armed intruders

[raedyn]

Right now the prison system is based apon rehabillitation, not punishment.

Does the American justice system truly claim to rehabilitate criminals? Oy! I don't think that locking someone up can count as rehab. Rehabilitation (which doesn't always work) must include interventions like addictions counselling, upgrading education, developing work skills, etc.

Rehabillitation does not work in the vast majority of cases.

What qualifies as a vast majority? Based upon what studies? And what are you calling rehab?

 

[raedyn]

Loss of property dosn't really have an impact on a large amount of criminals because they barely own anything.

While this is true for some criminals, it certainly doesn't apply to all of them. Some criminals live very well on the fruits of their 'labours'. Think of any major fraud artist. (There's a famous case here in Canada of a guy working at a bank that fraudulently acquired MILLIONS for himself and his family) Hell, think of Martha Stewart! She's got plenty of wealth, and she's a convicted criminal, currently serving jail time.

 

[raedyn]

My house is really just a building. I would like my neighbors to respect it, as I respect theirs, but in the end. There is nothing in that building that is irreplacable. If someone were to enter my home and take some of my possessions, it certainly would be a violation, I would be upset and angry, but, it really is just 'stuff'.

I hope that if I was ever forced between protecting my stuff and killing another person, I would give my stuff away. I can always get more 'stuff'.

My feelings exactly.

 

[Mark Weiser]

I think we are all only a few steps away from criminal activity ourselves. We only need to be deserate enough.

Reminds me of an ethics question from CJ 101

An elderly man in a wheelchair goes into a local bank and brandishes a firearm and tells the teller to give him money. After the investigation it is found the elderly man was broke and needed surgery for a heart problem.

Question: Would you throw the book at him or show compassion in convicting him?

 

[Flatlander]

Mark, I guess that would depend on whether or not someone had already shot him, wouldn't it?

 

[Tgace]

Who gets to judge which human lives those are?

Governments
Judges
Juries
Governors
Mothers

 

[Tgace]

Almost every state law basically says that if you are in your house and somebody breaks/forces their way in you can use deadly force to terminate that burgulary...

My state law (NY) says..

Art. 35.20-3 NYS Penal Law

3. A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other person when he reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of such burglary.

4. As used in this section, the following terms have the following meanings:

(a) The terms "premises," "building" and "dwelling" have the meanings prescribed in section 140.00;

(b) Persons "licensed or privileged" to be in buildings or upon other premises include, but are not limited to, police officers or peace officers acting in the performance of their duties.

In this case, the fact that the owner wasnt home when the burgulary was committed may throw a kink in a section like this, but as read it doesn't really state the "person in possession or control of" the dwelling actually has to be inside the dwelling at the time of the crime....dwelling meaning home, occupied building typically meaning business/office etc. that may be under guard.

This is what case law and lawyers are for....

 

[Tgace]

In cases like this its "presumptive evidence" that a person forcing their way into a home or occupied building to commit a crime present a deadly threat to those people inside...

 

[michaeledward]

Tgace ... (surprise) ... I agree that if you are in the home and someone enters clandestinely ... Bang Bang, He's dead.

Although, seriously, I am still against guns. I think they harm more than they protect innocent people. But that is a different discussion.

It was the fact that the bad guys were, apparently, fleeing that poses an ethical question (not a legal one). Several posters have touched on the 'Shoot-Don't Shoot' decision that I am asking about. I was a bit surprised and quite pleased that some indicated that they would not shoot based on the evidence we have available (which I agree is incomplete).

Then again, those who thought that intruders were always "in season" have been noticably quiet.

Legally though, if the invader is fleeing, has the commission of the burgurlary already been terminated, does this present another 'kink' in the case.

And please ... in this instance ... the intruder got every bit of what he deserved, and perhaps got off easy, but I repeat, the homeowner could not have known that when he drew his weapon.

 

[Flatlander]

What a difference in our laws. It's quite shocking.

 

[Tgace]

On Higgins Road, the owner of the residence encountered several people inside when he came up on the porch, sheriff's reports stated.

Four men left the home quickly as the homeowner fired several shots from a handgun. One of the shots struck the gunshot victim who was later left at the convenience store.

Now...were the BG's inside the house when the homeowner started shooting and they ran afterwards -OR- did the BG's run from the house and the homeowner started shooting at them as they ran??

I ask because in the first case you could argue "there were four guys burglarizing my home...when I saw them and they saw me I reasonably believed they would harm or kill me trying to escape." The law dosent (in my example at least) state you have to be inside or on your property before the crooks try to get in.

If its the other case, its not so clear.

 

[Tgace]

What a difference in our laws. It's quite shocking.

Can you find and post yours? Just for educational purposes.

 

[michaeledward]

We have several news reports concerning the events. Here are the facts as I understand them.

1)The homeowner was not at home when the intrusion began.
2)The homeowner came home at approximately 7:00 AM.
3)As he walked up onto his porch, he noticed a couple of men inside the house, and a couple of men outside the house.
4)The intruders exited the building to the rear of the house, where a white jeep was parked.
5)The homeowner fired his weapon TO STOP the intruders.

Exactly where the intruder who got shot in the left side of his face was when struck with the bullet is not clear (inside the house, outside the house, in the jeep). The most clear report states:

"Four people exited the residence rapidly and shots were fired."​

I read that sentence as the intruders ran away first, got shot at second. Others don't see that same sequence of events.​

As mentioned, I remain open to new facts, but we are all working with incomplete information.​

 

[Tgace]

Also, dont forget...this did happen in the South. Things are different there on the topic of self-defense (person or property) than they would be in NYC, Baltimore, Boston etc.

 

[Sharp702]

Who gets to judge which human lives those are?

Everyone can decide. Who do you think has more of a right to live, the guy in the story(a home owner, works, pays taxes, a normal productive citizen) or the criminals(felons, tax burdens by being in prison, harmfull to normal members of society..ect) ?

Every criminal? Convicted of every crime? In every circumstance? You would what... eliminate every pot-smoker, jay-walker, killed-him-cuz-he-beat-me-relentlessly, stole-bread-to-feed-my-children, was-begging-on-the-corner-so-I-didn't-have-to-steal ?

Obviously that is extreme, and I meant thieves, murderers, rapists...ect

And instead of this system you would propose what? Thought police? I wouldn't claim our system is perfect - far from it. But what would be better?

I said what I did to illistrate that people must take their protection in their own hands because the law cannot do anything until you become a victim.

What qualifies as a vast majority? Based upon what studies? And what are you calling rehab?

Over 70% of all prisoners released will repeat crimes and go right back into the system. As for rehab they are offered counselling, some education..ect.

Hell, think of Martha Stewart! She's got plenty of wealth, and she's a convicted criminal, currently serving jail time.

That is a rare instance. Majority of criminals owned little to nothing before they commited a crime. Another percentage fall in the lower-middle class, lossing a $60,000 home is hardly payment for taking someones life or other crimes.

 

[KenpoTex]

A couple of thoughts...

We'll probably never know the exact chronology of events in this incident. Did they run because he shot? Did he shoot to keep them from getting away? Which came first, the chicken or the egg... The laws in most states are going to be fairly similar as far as what constitutes reasonable force in this type of situation. By inadvertantly walking in on 4 guys in the act of burglarizing his house he was walking into a dangerous, and very possibly deadly situation and I in no way feel that the use of a firearm would be excessive in that situation. If they immediately tried to flee when he arrived then he probably shouldn't have opened fire. Like I said, we'll probably never know exactly how it went down.

As far as using force (lethal or not) to protect property, As I said in an earlier post, I think there are greater issues involved than a simple transfer of property and would (in most cases) resist by any means necessary and available. If you want to roll over and surrender because of your ethical/religious/philosophical beliefs, that's your decision. Just don't demonize those of us who adhere to a different viewpoint.

Guns: good or evil, feasible or not...We've been over this one before many times, I don't feel like going through it again. Believe and think what you will, just leave me and my guns alone.

Violent Criminals and the "so called" Corrections System: Murderers, Kiddnappers, Rapists, Robbers, etc. are TRASH! They are not going to be rehabilitated no matter how many correspondence courses they take, or how many touchy-feely counseling sessions they attend while they're behind bars. As far as I'm concerned anyone convicted of 1st degree murder, kidnapping, rape, or child-molestation should automatically get the death penalty. The current corrections system is a failure. Someone stated that the recidivism rate is around 70%. I seem to remember that it was closer to 80% but whatever. Either way, something is wrong. When these scumbags are in prison they have access to cable TV, Internet, and workout facilities. Furthermore, prisons are required to maintain a law-library so that these low-lifes can spend their time (when their not bulking up in the weight room or dealing drugs in the yard) screwing, oops, I mean suing the government for every reason under the sun. Most prisons no longer have license-plate or furniture factories becuase making the poor underpriveledged babies actually do something constructive is "cruel and unusual" in these days of political correctness. Prison is supposed to be a punishment for a crime. That is not to say that I think the inmates should be tortured or mistreated. I just find it disgusting that they can enjoy a better standard of living in prison than they do on the outside. Or for that matter, a better standard of living than many hard-working, law-abiding citizens in society.
I would personally be thrilled if most (if not all) prisons resembled "Tent City" Sheriff Joe Arpaio's jail down in Maricopa County, Arizona. Maybe then they wouldn't want to go back.

Okay, I'm done ranting for now.

 

[michaeledward]

You know, I always thought the english language was a pretty powerful way of describing things, able to represent accurately a vast quantity of ideas, actions and things. Seems to me that we can gain a pretty clear understanding of what happened by using our language. For instance, the conjunction 'and' not only brings together two phrases and clauses, it also indicates a sequence for those phrases and clauses. So, when a sentence says:

"Four people exited the residence rapidly and shots were fired."​

it is clear that the four people exited the residence rapidly before the shots were fired.

If you want to roll over and surrender because of your ethical/religious/philosophical beliefs, that's your decision. Just don't demonize those of us who adhere to a different viewpoint.

Who is 'demonizing' whom?
Using the terms 'roll over' and 'surrender' give a pretty clear connotation as to your beliefs: that your possessions are more important than a human life. Or maybe that your right to fire a weapon (the 2nd Amendment) is more important than a human life.

I hope that none of us are ever in the situation described in this article. But if the choice is between someone being on my property and someone being shot in the face, I do not think these two evils are equal.

 

[Tgace]

Where are you finding the..."Four people exited the residence rapidly and shots were fired."? Ive searched for more articles on this shooting and all I can find is the same article that started this thread and it says.

On Higgins Road, the owner of the residence encountered several people inside when he came up on the porch, sheriff's reports stated.

Four men left the home quickly as the homeowner fired several shots from a handgun. One of the shots struck the gunshot victim who was later left at the convenience store.

 

[Bammx2]

My 2 bits.....

I have been reading this whole thing since it was started and have come to a conclusion....
It doesn't matter how many times someone can quote an ammendment.
it doesn't matter if some think "some people just need killin".
This whole thread seems to be turning into a dead-horse kickin contest.
The deed was done. its over.
We know certain people don't agree and we know certain people do.
This is a good forum and good people are getting heated over difference of
opinions.
Nobody is gonna give in either way.
live with it!

 

[michaeledward]

Where are you finding the..."Four people exited the residence rapidly and shots were fired."? Ive searched for more articles on this shooting and all I can find is the same article that started this thread and it says.

Tgace, thank you for asking. The link to the Shelby County Sherriff's office is here

http://www.shelbyso.com/news.php

The fourth article down the link contains that exact text. Later reports from newspaper websites don't include the same text, nor do they include the text:

"He fired several shots from a handgun in an attempt to stop the suspects"​

The complete text is quoted here. I have changed the format of the text in question.​

​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Burglary / Shooting Incident
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]10/11/2004 3:10pm

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[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]At approximately 7:08 am this morning, Shelby County 911 was notified of a gunshot victim in a convenience store located at the intersection of county highway 47 and 71. This is in the Shelby community south of Columbiana. First on the scene was a Sheriff’s deputy who found a male subject lying on the floor who was shot in the head or neck area. A customer and the store employee were administering aid. Southeast Shelby Rescue arrived quickly, as did RPS ambulance, and continued medical treatment. Lifesaver helicopter arrived and the victim was transported to University Hospital.


“The information we now have is that this young man was brought to the store and let out by three other persons driving a white Jeep Cherokee with a Shelby County license tag. At the almost identical time that this call came in to 911, another call was received reporting a burglary in progress in the 100 block of Higgins Road which is a short distance from this store. The suspects in the burglary left in a white Jeep. As this gunshot victim had no identification on him, and we could not learn his name from him, I am asking anyone who has knowledge of this incident to call our office and tell us who he is so his family can be contacted. His injury is very serious and it is important that contact be made with family as soon as possible,” says Sheriff Chris Curry.


On Higgins Road, the owner of the residence encountered several people inside when he came up on the porch. Four people exited the residence rapidly and shots were fired. At this time, the investigation continues but it appears that one of those shots struck the victim found at the nearby store. The vehicle descriptions match.


“The owner of the property found himself in a dangerous and difficult situation, outnumbered four to one, while trying to protect himself and his property from this group whose intentions were unknown. He fired several shots from a handgun in an attempt to stop the suspects,” adds Sheriff Curry.

In the past two weeks, Shelby County has had a senior citizen awake to find burglars inside her home, and now a dedicated husband and father who works many hours to provide for his family, comes home to find intruders inside and stealing his hard earned property. All of law enforcement needs the help of the community to prevent these very scary and dangerous acts. Call your local law enforcement with any suspicious persons or vehicles seen in your neighborhood.

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