Makiwara or Free-Standing Bag?

[Em MacIntosh]

I have a two home made makiwara. One is a phonebook wrapped in carpet and the other is a piece of ironwood with a half inch of straw on the striking surface. The latter doesn't last long. I hate the wave masters. You have to fill them with lead shavings or something to make them heavy enough to actually lay into and hit full force. From my experience, the canvas Hv. Bag with no gloves is the best. Concentrate on keeping your wrists tight. "Sugar" your knuckles a little and swell them up so they become a bit numb, then hit it full force. This forces you not to rely on wrist wraps to protect you from a bend. It also impact trains your cartilage. Problem with your knuckles getting numb is that you might overdo it. I had a six foot ceiling growing up and I managed to use the bag effectively but it was just roped between two chains and had no swivel. This reduced it's swing but kept it moving.

 

[seasoned]

well they did not expect every strike to finish the confrentation, but yes i agree that makawara is my prefered way to train for focous and for power and to "punch through" the target. you were trained then and now to use some techniques to set up that last strike, but makawara will teach you focous and power and condition the bones and hands to deliver the force to do what must be done.

Correct Chinto, not every technique is designed to finish the confrontation. Some are there to set up that finish blow. Karate is what you want to get out of it. If you want sport then that is what you will focus on. If you are a traditionalist then some of the old training implements are what may interest you. Karate was devised as a means to destroy with the least amount of moves possible. Makiwara was designed to accomplish this. The free standing bag has it’s place as well as the old tried and true Makiwara. GoJu is my first love so I can’t speck for other arts and training methods but I love to discuss Okinawan GoJu very much.

 

[twendkata71]

The makiwara is not just for conditioning the hands, it is also for developing the hip power and proper alignment for strikes as well as power of the strikes. Motobu felt it to be the most important training devise. He even had one in his toilet(outhouse back then).

 

[seasoned]

well they did not expect every strike to finish the confrentation, but yes i agree that makawara is my prefered way to train for focous and for power and to "punch through" the target. you were trained then and now to use some techniques to set up that last strike, but makawara will teach you focous and power and condition the bones and hands to deliver the force to do what must be done.

When punching through the target, is it as much mental as physical? At what point when punching through the target does it become more push then punch? When punching a free standing bag I think we could easily punch a foot or so into the bag in our quest to move it. IMHO the Makiwara only allows us inches before it springs us back into position again., which in affect is teaching us good form for the next technique.
I will admit that boxers do very well with free standing bags and they don’t use a Makiwara, but then again I don’t box.

 

[chinto]

Correct Chinto, not every technique is designed to finish the confrontation. Some are there to set up that finish blow. Karate is what you want to get out of it. If you want sport then that is what you will focus on. If you are a traditionalist then some of the old training implements are what may interest you. Karate was devised as a means to destroy with the least amount of moves possible. Makiwara was designed to accomplish this. The free standing bag has it’s place as well as the old tried and true Makiwara. GoJu is my first love so I can’t speck for other arts and training methods but I love to discuss Okinawan GoJu very much.

yes I love Karate myself, though i train in a style of shorin ryu myself.

 

[chinto]

The makiwara is not just for conditioning the hands, it is also for developing the hip power and proper alignment for strikes as well as power of the strikes. Motobu felt it to be the most important training devise. He even had one in his toilet(outhouse back then).

Yep, all of it works together, alinement of the bones and joints, hips and arms and even legs and stance to make that strike what it should be. not that every strike will end the confrentation, but every strike has that potential depending on the openings and the openings you make for yourself with your foot work and taisabaki and other techniques.

 

[chinto]

When punching through the target, is it as much mental as physical? At what point when punching through the target does it become more push then punch? When punching a free standing bag I think we could easily punch a foot or so into the bag in our quest to move it. IMHO the Makiwara only allows us inches before it springs us back into position again., which in affect is teaching us good form for the next technique.
I will admit that boxers do very well with free standing bags and they don’t use a Makiwara, but then again I don’t box.

Punching through the target is about penetration. You aim for behind that target so to speak, the idea being to focouse the trama into the body and not have it be like meany sport trained people do, where they aim to strike only to the surfice and do not get the penetration for the truama that will dispatch the attacker when its a real confrentation. the makawara teaches you to strike hard and with 'fallowthrough" to use a sports term for what couses that penatrating strike and the trauma that will end the confrentation quickly.

 

[seasoned]

Punching through the target is about penetration. You aim for behind that target so to speak, the idea being to focouse the trama into the body and not have it be like meany sport trained people do, where they aim to strike only to the surfice and do not get the penetration for the truama that will dispatch the attacker when its a real confrentation. the makawara teaches you to strike hard and with 'fallowthrough" to use a sports term for what couses that penatrating strike and the trauma that will end the confrentation quickly.

Good point, penetration is not a word we hear to often when talking about striking. This as you have mentioned is the fine line between damaging technique and a pushing one.

 

[chinto]

Good point, penetration is not a word we hear to often when talking about striking. This as you have mentioned is the fine line between damaging technique and a pushing one.

yes and penetration is the diference between a bruse and trama to bones and internal organs that will end the fight quickly. A rib in the lungs is one of the things that will end a fight fast. others are ruptured spleens and livers and meany others. but they all requier penetration of the technique.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

I think a heavy bag is really good for this. You can tell the difference when you pushed it from when you hit it "deep". It's about whether you feel the energy of the strike dispurse through the whole bag or just a small concentrated area. You can just tell when you hit it right. The makiwara represents the "feel" of kaate and the karate punch better though. Sand in a giant flower pot is good too. Builds callouses.

 

[chinto]

Correct Chinto, not every technique is designed to finish the confrontation. Some are there to set up that finish blow. Karate is what you want to get out of it. If you want sport then that is what you will focus on. If you are a traditionalist then some of the old training implements are what may interest you. Karate was devised as a means to destroy with the least amount of moves possible. Makiwara was designed to accomplish this. The free standing bag has it’s place as well as the old tried and true Makiwara. GoJu is my first love so I can’t speck for other arts and training methods but I love to discuss Okinawan GoJu very much.

well I am not a goju man, but I study traditional okinawan style of shorin ryu called Shobayashi. I dont train for sport and like to use the older tools as they were developed carefully over a long long time to optimize the chances of survival of a confrentation that could not be avoided... of coures avoiding a confrantation is almost always preferable.

 

[chinto]

The makiwara is not just for conditioning the hands, it is also for developing the hip power and proper alignment for strikes as well as power of the strikes. Motobu felt it to be the most important training devise. He even had one in his toilet(outhouse back then).

yep, it inproves technique and builds focouse a lot better then a heavy bag I think.