Makers of true historic swords and other weaons?

[Kframe]

Chris parker, your negativity is annoying me.. Do you go out of your way to sound condescending? I never asked for anything special.. NOT ONCE. I did find one Hema Group in Indianapolis, that's a 2 hour drive for me. I cant seam to find a website link for them on Hema, but ill keep looking. Sure I could go a few times a month for practice with them, but how is 2 hours 4 times a month meaningfull practice? Lastly I wanted to mostly do the dagger work and 1 handed sword and longsword.

 

[Kframe]

I wish I could edit my posts... I was in a less then good mood when I wrote it.. Chris, ignore what I wrote about you being negative and condescending. I misinterpreted your post, it sounded negative to me. Your right, I am not entitled to anything special..

I looked into that Hema group in Indy, and it was disbanded. I found one in Kalamazoo Michigan, but its a 3 hour 1 way drive. I have email into them and ill let you know what they say.. Ill probably have to arrange something with them, as I wont be able to make that drive very often..

 

[Carol]

I wish I could edit my posts... I was in a less then good mood when I wrote it.

Just as an FYI...You can edit your posts within the first 60 minutes of posting.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[lklawson]

Kframe,

I've asked you once already and still haven't heard back from you. Where are you located? I am part of the Western Martial Arts community and I have friends, practitioners and Instructors, all over the country and in several other nations. If I don't know someone in or near your area, I can easily ask my friends and we can find the closest known group or instructor to you.

So, again, where are you?

From your description of distance to Indianapolis and Kalamazoo, I'm guessing near to Effingham, Il. or Cincinnati, Oh.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[jks9199]

Chris parker, your negativity is annoying me.. Do you go out of your way to sound condescending? I never asked for anything special.. NOT ONCE. I did find one Hema Group in Indianapolis, that's a 2 hour drive for me. I cant seam to find a website link for them on Hema, but ill keep looking. Sure I could go a few times a month for practice with them, but how is 2 hours 4 times a month meaningfull practice? Lastly I wanted to mostly do the dagger work and 1 handed sword and longsword.

First -- how do you know what you might find out if you contact them? Especially if you take the time to actually go out and train a few times. Someone just might decide that this Kframe guy is pretty cool, and seems kind of serious, so we'll let him know about the little group we have that's only 1/2 an hour from him...

As to how meaningful a few hours training a couple of times a month can be... That depends on you. If you pay attention and practice carefully what they show you, and follow the guidance of the instructors in practicing on your own -- it can be a lot. If you go in every other Saturday for 2 hours, and then don't touch your sword or other practice gear in between... Then you almost certainly won't have much success at it.

 

[Kframe]

Iklawson, im in fort wayne Indiana. It takes me about 2 hours to get to indy from where I live. I do tend to drive conservatively tho.. Id appreciate you looking into your contacts.

JkS, My focus for WMA is dagger. Tho i have every intention of learning some sword skills only because i find them cool, and i don't want to be another katana junky. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Ill tell you what im noticing about the dagger work tho. My combative coach teach's some things that are very similar.

We have a drill incredibly similar to this...

 

[lklawson]

Iklawson, im in fort wayne Indiana. It takes me about 2 hours to get to indy from where I live. I do tend to drive conservatively tho.. Id appreciate you looking into your contacts.

I used to live in Portland. Friends lived in Ft. Wayne. Relatives in Muncie. I'll start checking around.

Ill tell you what im noticing about the dagger work tho. My combative coach teaches some things that are very similar.

We have a drill incredibly similar to this...

Fiore system. Italian.

It is uncommon to teach Fiore dagger in isolation except in seminars. Everyone I know teaches Fiore as a comprehensive system. I've studied it a bit. I use some of his dagger plays in Tomahawk work and I've incorporated some elements of his Spear into my club's 5' staff material.

I'll let you know what I come up with.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

OK, got a really solid hit for you:

Suggest to him he come out to Historic Ft Wayne over the weekend of April 13 and
14th. there is a HEMA/reencatment event, Early Modern Muster, that weekend and a
number of folks from the northern Midwest will be there.

I plan to be there as well as Bob Charron, I believe, and the local folks may be
able to direct him to instructors who can help him out.

There is also a Facebook page for the event.

Allen

Both Allen (Allen Reed) and Bob Charron are friends and both know what they're doing. Bob, in particular, is sorta "Mr. Expert on Fiore." I can't think of anyone more qualified to give a primer or advanced instruction on Fiore dagger plays.

The date is near, the instruction is good, and the location is right on top of you. Go to this. Ask questions about study groups, near by or forming one. Take whatever classes Bob is willing to give (if any). The guy is a class act.

And say hi to both Bob and Allen from me, Kirk Lawson. Tell him that the bowie knife and head-thumping brawler from Ohio sends his regards (the "bowie knife" part differentiates me from Ken Pfrenger, also a head-thumping brawler, and mutual friend, from Ohio).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[mook jong man]

OK, got a really solid hit for you:

Both Allen (Allen Reed) and Bob Charron are friends and both know what they're doing. Bob, in particular, is sorta "Mr. Expert on Fiore." I can't think of anyone more qualified to give a primer or advanced instruction on Fiore dagger plays.

The date is near, the instruction is good, and the location is right on top of you. Go to this. Ask questions about study groups, near by or forming one. Take whatever classes Bob is willing to give (if any). The guy is a class act.

And say hi to both Bob and Allen from me, Kirk Lawson. Tell him that the bowie knife and head-thumping brawler from Ohio sends his regards (the "bowie knife" part differentiates me from Ken Pfrenger, also a head-thumping brawler, and mutual friend, from Ohio).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Yeah , that Bob guy is good .
I went to a seminar of his years ago when he came to Sydney , Australia.
We did a lot of the Fiore stuff , some medieval grappling I think it was , and some Farmer Burns exercises I think he called it.
Highly skilled and a very nice man

 

[lklawson]

While we're on the subject, this year's Recreational Violence WMA Seminar is the first weekend of June out at Ken's at Pymatuming.

http://www.facebook.com/events/169455833208535/?ref=ts&fref=ts

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Kframe]

Cant type much right now, really busy. HOLY CRAP I didn't know this was even going on! I live in this town lol. Iklawson, thanks for your help. ill be going to that event both days.. Its says its early modern, 16th and 17th century. Is there really going to be a hema group there as well? I didn't think they did early modern>? Ill post more when I get back from work.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ha, that's the way it works... these types of interests are rather specialist, so there is rarely much in the way of advertising... most contact is made through word of mouth, personal introductions, and getting to know people who are already involved. Kirk (lklawson) is a fantastic contact to have in this regard. It's the same in Koryu (traditional Japanese arts), for the most part.

 

[lklawson]

Ha, that's the way it works... these types of interests are rather specialist, so there is rarely much in the way of advertising... most contact is made through word of mouth, personal introductions, and getting to know people who are already involved. Kirk (lklawson) is a fantastic contact to have in this regard. It's the same in Koryu (traditional Japanese arts), for the most part.

The funny thing is that it's not hard, it just takes time and commitment. Most folks in the WMA/HEMA community are really stand-up guys. I started off with an interest and found Ken Pfrenger was near-ish to me in Ohio; a "mere" 3 hour drive or so. I emailed him with questions, got to know him, then drove out to visit him for instruction and correction. He never asked one thin dime of me in remuneration but I always made sure to bring something, food, diapers, whatever. From there, I started attending Seminars and started a study group with a couple of friends from work. We actually initially trained during lunch hours in the corporate exercise room! I started making more contacts with instructors and practitioners at seminars. After I'd established myself and my study for a few years, I was invited to teach at a small seminar (Ken's "Recreational Violence") and I've been going back ever since. I've made a point to seek particular instruction from Dwight McLemore and his students, eventually gaining a certification from him. I just worked at "plugging myself into" the community. Wasn't hard. Just took time.

Now I have WMA friends worldwide. Most of 'em know of my republishing hobby and several have volunteered texts to me (such as my friend Stephan in Germany), others have contacted me for joint republishing projects (such as my friend Jarred), and a few have even come to me for advice on the subject (which, while gratifying, feels a bit weird).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I got a hit from the gent in Kalamazoo too.

I think I'm probably the guy he's found in Kalamazoo. It's going to be a
fair trek for him, but if he's at all interested in even intermittent (once
a month or so) training, pass on my contact info. I've got a couple of
others who suddenly want to start training (one of my criteria for setting
aside the time is having people who'll show up, otherwise I can just do any
solo training on my own schedule), my kids are a bit older, so time is
slightly more free, my back is healing nicely, and I've got a decent space
to work in. He'll have to like Fiore...

Keith

Keith is another stand up joe. Worth training with.

His email is: Keith Nelson <[email protected]>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Kframe]

THank you Iklawson for all your help.. Before I commit to driving to Michigan, im going to go to the muster at the historic fort first and talk with your contacts there. Hopefully they can point me to some trainers closer to me. That I feel would be the wisest first step. The 2 people you mentioned at the historic fort muster, are they event leaders? Easy to find? Ill defineatly drop a email to your friend Keith, and try to gather some more information about the style and how my training might look like if I have to do the michagan route.

 

[Kframe]

Off topic, but ill ask. How does Fiore's dagger element of his style stack up against modern knife combatives? Lets say what ever is currently taught in the military.

 

[lklawson]

The 2 people you mentioned at the historic fort muster, are they event leaders? Easy to find?

Allen and Bob? I don't know if they're event leaders or not. I don't know much about the event other than that they'll both be there and they're giving demos or something.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Off topic, but ill ask. How does Fiore's dagger element of his style stack up against modern knife combatives? Lets say what ever is currently taught in the military.

Most medieval dagger work has small similarity to modern knife material, which often as not hails from a Filipino martial arts (FMA) background or, sometimes, a Sykes/Fairbairn/Applegate/Styers linage.

What you have to understand is that medieval dagger material evolved in a different context. Whereas, today, most knife work is predicated on short "pocket knife" sized blades and light, modern, clothing, medieval dagger material was developed for the medieval noblesse and/or knightly environment. The system, regardless of Italian or German, almost always uses a long, point oriented, rondel knife (which may or may not have a meaningful edge). It was predicated to heavier clothing appropriate for "The Little Ice Age" and/or use against someone in armour; hence the emphasis of the point over the edge. Techniques for use of and defense against evolved in this context.

That's the thing about knife, sword, stick, empty-handed systems, &tc. They all evolve in their own context and the resulting system may not be perfectly adapted for your modern use, whatever that may be, be it military, LEO, or civilian self defense. I've written (ranted?) about this before here in this forum but, quite literally, everything about the context goes into the system. There's a reason that the Spanish Navaja is shaped differently from the Rondell or the Balisong. Clothing, social restrictions, legal restrictions, theories on fighting and restraint, requisites of dueling versus "fighting" (whatever they may think that is), restrictions on social classes, &tc. all go into what makes up a fighting system.

If you want to study knife fighting for a modern self defense reason, then just go find a modern school teaching modern knife fighting. The Filipino systems have frequently adapted well to modern U.S. environment. My friends tell me that Modern Arnis (Presas origins) is quite well adapted. However, if you're looking for something with a historic flavor, then knife systems from the Middle Ages or the Renaissance (or somewhere/when else) might be interesting to you.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Kframe]

From what I have seen of the dagger system on videos, it seams to be predominantly gross motor grappling based. Only based on what I have seen, I feel it would still perform adequately for todays threats.

 

[Tgace]