Sword katas

[thardey]

Ninjamom,

Thank you very much, I have bookmarked all of those links, and will spend some time following up on them.

I will certainly keep an eye out for any chance to see a Haidong Gumdo instructor in person, and will be sure not to pass that up!

I have only watched a couple of videos so far, but I can definitely see the Korean influence on CKD. 9 out of 11 forms required for 1st Black are traditional Korean. (3 "Geichos" 5 "Pian-ans" and "Basai".) The 10th is a modified Korean.

I like how different types and lengths of swords are used for different situations. Thank you for showing me a new art to appreciate. Before yesterday I didn't even know there was a Korean Sword Art.

Thank you. :asian:

Travis

 

[tellner]

Hey Thardey, I was talking to my friend Mushtaq who lived and taught Silat in the area for several years. There are a few Filipino Martial Arts schools in the area. If you're willing to travel to Eugene once in a while Kru Mike Walrath coaches Thai boxing. He also teaches Krabi Krabong, the Thai military martial art which includes sword, pair of swords, spear, halberd, vambraces, throwing knife, empty hand and more. He was one of the first (hard core) Americans to go to Buddai Swan in Thailand and go through the whole instructors' program. Great guy, fantastic teacher. There are or were Bangau Putih Silat people in your area, but I don't know how to get a hold of them. They practice a form of Silat with a lot of Chinese influence and may teach Chinese sword technique.

 

[Sukerkin]

I'm not sure that I fully agree that the phrase:

"The Japanese technique primarily focuses on one-versus-one, or individual combat"

is accurate.

I study MJER iaido and a large proportion of the kata in the art are targeted towards dealing with multiple opponents. I think that the Katori Shinto chaps would take exception to their art being characterised as 'non-battlefield' too .

Sad to say, if you're searching for a simple cut-and-dried, one phrase, distinction, then I fear that disappointment awaits. I'm afraid that trying to find such black and white definitions is in part responsible for the spread of misconceptions within the martial arts in general.

 

[shesulsa]

I'm not sure I can add anything to what's already been said, though I must say, "Good Luck" with finding someone who will train you with the mindset you've admitted to.

If you find a good swordsmanship instructor in the Portland/Vancouver area, I'd appreciate the information as I like to try to keep up with who is in my area.

Thanks.

 

[Charles Mahan]

There is a Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Sandan (Canadian Iaido Association) in Portland now. His name is John Prichard. I believe he plans to open a dojo if he hasn't already. I had a chance to meet him at this last US Iaido Embukai. Good guy with solid Iai. He should have a lot to teach new students and his connections to Japan go back through Esaka Seigen-sensei 10th Dan and Vice President of the Zen Nippon Iaido Renmei.

 

[shesulsa]

There is a Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Sandan (Canadian Iaido Association) in Portland now. His name is John Prichard. I believe he plans to open a dojo if he hasn't already. I had a chance to meet him at this last US Iaido Embukai. Good guy with solid Iai. He should have a lot to teach new students and his connections to Japan go back through Esaka Seigen-sensei 10th Dan and Vice President of the Zen Nippon Iaido Renmei.

Thank you. :asian:

 

[thardey]

Sad to say, if you're searching for a simple cut-and-dried, one phrase, distinction, then I fear that disappointment awaits. I'm afraid that trying to find such black and white definitions is in part responsible for the spread of misconceptions within the martial arts in general.

Too true, how can you sum up a lifetime/generation/era philosophy of fighting in one sentence?

 

[thardey]

Hey Thardey, I was talking to my friend Mushtaq who lived and taught Silat in the area for several years. There are a few Filipino Martial Arts schools in the area. If you're willing to travel to Eugene once in a while Kru Mike Walrath coaches Thai boxing. He also teaches Krabi Krabong, the Thai military martial art which includes sword, pair of swords, spear, halberd, vambraces, throwing knife, empty hand and more. He was one of the first (hard core) Americans to go to Buddai Swan in Thailand and go through the whole instructors' program. Great guy, fantastic teacher. There are or were Bangau Putih Silat people in your area, but I don't know how to get a hold of them. They practice a form of Silat with a lot of Chinese influence and may teach Chinese sword technique.

I appreciate the homework and effort you've put into that information. I will definitely keep that in mind, and see what my future travel plans hold. Is there a website that you could point me to that is a good introduction to Krabi Krabong? I've heard of it, but I don't know anything about it.

 

[Don Roley]

I will probably pursue this on one of the ninjustu boards, but is there a thread you could reference that has already disscussed SKH and other Masaaki Hatsumi "disciples"? I would hate to find an opportunity to study Bujinkan and then find out later that I have been learning from an "Ashida Kim" disciple, or a poorly trained "ninja wannabe".

Apparently there is a large ninpo school in Portland, and it is possible that in the next few years they may open a branch were I live. Dojo's are popping up here faster than Starbucks. What credentials should I look for?

(If this is an inappropriate board to ask this question on, please let me know the etiquette for moving it.)

Go to Winjutsu.com. If they are there, they are associated with Hatsumi and the Bujinkan.

There are other orginizations as well. And there are a few Bujinkan dojos that fall through the cracks. I know of a few that don't have web pages.

So if it is not on winjutsu, start a thread in the ninjutsu section here asking about it. If anyone knows about them, they will tell you.

Hope this helps. It looks like you got a choice of Krabi Krabong as well as Muso Jikeden Eishin ryu as well. It may be that if you really want to learn sword, you might want to go with them instead. Many Bujinkan instructors teach sword, but don't really know it. That is slowly changing thanks to people like Luke Molitor, I hope.

 

[tellner]

If you're willing to come as far as Portland there are more options. The Obukan Kendo club is excellent. There are plenty of Filipino Martial Arts schools. I don't know if any of the Chinese martial arts kwoons teach anything about the sword besides form, but it's worth a look. Kru Steve Wilson (http://www.chalambok.us) is a top-flight Krabi Krabong teacher and does private lessons.

 

[pgsmith]

I study MJER iaido and a large proportion of the kata in the art are targeted towards dealing with multiple opponents. I think that the Katori Shinto chaps would take exception to their art being characterised as 'non-battlefield' too.

Actually, the vast majority of the Japanese sword arts is "non-battlefield" since swords were historically not used on the battlefield. They were more akin to modern day side arm in usage. There are lots of opportunities today to train in such things as quick draw pistol techniques, target acquisition and discernment, and quick shot urban pistol usage. However, if someone was to go into a battle, they would NOT be depending upon their sidearm. They would have an automatic rifle, or an M50 machine gun, or a tank! These are battlefield weapons. The sidearm may occassionally be used in certain situations, but it would hardly be worthwhile to spend too much time training for those rare occassions.
The sword, at least in Japanese history, was much the same. Battles were mostly fought using distance weapons and spears. the number of recorded sword casualties is actually pretty small, and there's no telling how many of those casualties were actually "guarantee they aren't faking" type of usage.

Here is an interesting email from Karl Friday, professor of East Asian history at the University of Georgia, that he put on the Iaido-L email list a number of years ago ... http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9911&L=iaido-l&P=R4481&D=0&H=0&I=-3&O=T&T=1

The original email discussion centered around the use of firearms in the battlefield, but notice the number of sword casualties versus the total numbers.

 

[thardey]

Go to Winjutsu.com. If they are there, they are associated with Hatsumi and the Bujinkan.

Thank you very much, I'll go check that out.

Hope this helps. It looks like you got a choice of Krabi Krabong as well as Muso Jikeden Eishin ryu as well. It may be that if you really want to learn sword, you might want to go with them instead. Many Bujinkan instructors teach sword, but don't really know it. That is slowly changing thanks to people like Luke Molitor, I hope.

I have a friend who is a multiple Dan in Eishin ryu. He's more interested in stick fighting, and he's never mentioned sword training -- but I've never asked him. I'll have to pick his brain.

 

[thardey]

Actually, the vast majority of the Japanese sword arts is "non-battlefield" since swords were historically not used on the battlefield. They were more akin to modern day side arm in usage.

I think you're right -- there's a big difference though between "multiple opponents" and "Battlefield".

I think everyone would agree that the rapier was useless in battle, but we have a lot of fun fencing two-on one, three-on-two, or sometimes even three-on-one scenarios. There are techniques that are appropriate for those situations.

The historical scenario would be an attack by a poorly trained group of robbers on a (surprise!) well trained swordsman. Since many people carried a sword as a sign of class, it was hard to know who actually knew how to use it. (Like many people who carry concealed handguns today.)

I would imagine that the sidesword in Japan could be used the same way. Very effective for a duel, still quite useful to defend against a few thugs, but only carried as a backup weapon in battle. (Or perhaps as an homage to ancestors or some spiritual link.)

I've been very surprised by how short the Katanas seem to be. (Remember, I'm used to bastard swords and rapers - minimum 30"-35" blades). It seems that a katana would be useless on a horse, or against one, which would be your biggest battlefield concern. I've heard of longer katana-type swords for cavalry, the ones they wore on their back - the name escapes me at the moment, but they would be too long to carry everyday for personal defense.

 

[pgsmith]

The historical scenario would be an attack by a poorly trained group of robbers on a (surprise!) well trained swordsman. Since many people carried a sword as a sign of class, it was hard to know who actually knew how to use it. (Like many people who carry concealed handguns today.)

Actually, that is incorrect. In feudal Japan robbers were not generally poorly trained, they were simply samurai from the losing side. Banditry was the most normal occupation for the ronin. Also, it is actually fairly easy to tell a trained swordsman from an untrained one just by how they move. If this can be done today, how much easier would it have been back when these swords were actually used?

It seems that a katana would be useless on a horse, or against one, which would be your biggest battlefield concern.

If you read the bit that I linked to, you'd discover that rocks are much more of a battlefield concern than anything having to do with swords.

 

[Sukerkin]

I agree with your summations in post 31 above, pgsmith, the only thing I'd emphasise a touch is that Katori Shinto is a battlefield art (or at least an armoured one) - that's it's raison d'etre.

The reason I respond at all (having said that I agree with you) is just that with your use of a quote from me it intimates that I actually said something contrary to what you did, when in fact what I was referenceing was something specifically sword oriented.

To clarify still further as to why I'm banging on about this, in years gone by, when I was only starting to learn about the useage of 'medieval' weaponry, I used to vehemently argue that the sword could beat anything, especially knives-on-sticks (aka polearms) and that out of context quote made me shiver with embarassed recollection of those past arguments .

Stepping outside of that narrow confine, then as I say, I agree wholeheartedly. In 'historical' times the katana was a side-arm, allbeit a useful one, and a samurai would be more likely to make use of yari, naginata or bow (or even gun) in battlefield confrontations.

 

[thardey]

Actually, that is incorrect. In feudal Japan robbers were not generally poorly trained, they were simply samurai from the losing side. Banditry was the most normal occupation for the ronin.

Now that's an interesting bit of history - where can I find more information on that?

Also, it is actually fairly easy to tell a trained swordsman from an untrained one just by how they move. If this can be done today, how much easier would it have been back when these swords were actually used?

It's easy for a trained swordsman to tell another swordsman -- but the untrained "low-level" robber has a hard time. They don't know what to look for. Most people are absolutely shocked when they find out I can handle a sword or do karate (I'm pretty laid back) -- but others with sword/karate experience know it before I say anything.

If you read the bit that I linked to, you'd discover that rocks are much more of a battlefield concern than anything having to do with swords.

Gotta give credit to the simple weapons! (I was referring to horses in context of sword-combat -- actually, now that I think of it, katanas wouldn't be very effective against rocks either, would they? )

I am a big fan of the bow and the sling. In Europe, however, the archers/slingers were usually treated with disdain (it was considered dishonorable). How were they treated in Asia?

 

[thardey]

If you're willing to come as far as Portland there are more options. The Obukan Kendo club is excellent. There are plenty of Filipino Martial Arts schools. I don't know if any of the Chinese martial arts kwoons teach anything about the sword besides form, but it's worth a look. Kru Steve Wilson (http://www.chalambok.us) is a top-flight Krabi Krabong teacher and does private lessons.

My wife's family lives in Portland, so we visit there often. What is their policy on spectators?

 

[tellner]

Obukan allows visitors. Kru Wilson only does private lessons and seminars. All of the FMA schools of which I am aware allow visitors.

 

[pgsmith]

Now that's an interesting bit of history - where can I find more information on that?

Not sure exactly where to direct you for more on it. It's simply Japanese history. I'll expand a little bit though. Feudal Japanese society was extremely striated. There were distinct classes and, while it was possible, it was very difficult to move up to the samurai caste. The samurai were on the top of the system (since they basically created and enforced it). Collectively, their job was to be fighting men. They were raised into it from a very young age learning horses, weapons and fighting arts. They were the ones that owned the weapons and horses. Other castes did not ride, and so were quite limited in their mobility. The samurai lived on stipends from their overlord. When a particular lord was defeated, that meant that all of the samurai he was supporting no longer had an employer. Some of them could take up with another overlord, but many of them either did not have the connections nor credentials to do so. These were known as ronin, masterless samurai. Some of them became merchants or worked in the towns. A great many of them simply turned outlaw since those were the skills that they had been taught since childhood.

In Europe, however, the archers/slingers were usually treated with disdain (it was considered dishonorable). How were they treated in Asia?

Very little is written about slingers, however the samurai were all archers. It was one of the basic skills that was taught from childhood. In feudal times, horsemanship and archery were the big things. Everything else came second to those skills.