Lowering the Gate

[jfarnsworth]

..It is a rising forearm underneath the chin, followed by a downward hammerfist to the clavicle. From there the the middle knuckle punches through in an arc that loops away from your attacker, than returns as an underhand hammerfist. However that is only what I was taught...

That's interesting. Thanks for sharing the knowledge. Always more food for thought. That follows pretty closely to what I was thinking about the form except I like the analogy of the underhand hammerfist. I should have figured that out on my own 'cause why else would it travel back up the same line.

 

[Sigung86]

Hey Doc!

Interesting discussion. I'm sure I have been spending waaaay to much time in the midst of traditional Chinese Internal Martial Arts. Not sure why it would be used in a Kenpo set the way it is, unless it might go back to a motion where you are manipulating a meridian. That is the way I have always interpreted the motion. Kind of a Sublevel 4 manipulation. LOL

Now... That's a possibility. The central meridian would be in real trouble with a rake and a downward push on the flow of energy.

However, that would have to include some other motion or, rather, action to make it a completely useful implementation.

But ... Only being an ex-sixth dan in Tracy's (My knowledge was rescinded with my rank), I'm probably just shooting in the wind.

So... Next time, ask me about my pi-chuan. As an internal stylist said of that particular fist form, "It only hurts when I pi"!
:whip: <-- Nughty me attempting to escape and evade the dreadful dire stare of Doc... :uhyeah:

 

[Doc]

Hey Doc!
As an internal stylist said of that particular fist form, "It only hurts when I pi"!

I can't believe you said that.

 

[jaybacca72]

hey doc does your sub 4 go hand in hand with the kenpo forms and if so which ones are they. do any of the forms break the rules of anatomical alignment? just curious that's all.
later
jay

 

[Doc]

hey doc does your sub 4 go hand in hand with the kenpo forms and if so which ones are they. do any of the forms break the rules of anatomical alignment? just curious that's all.
later
jay

What a great question. No one ever asked me that before. There is a SubLevel Four Kenpo corellation to what is known as Motion Kenpo-Karate's basic forms and sets. However as far as the forms go, Mr. Parker made his diversion to the creation of Motion Kenpo-Karate forms and sets, after up to Short Form Three were already in place.

Although there was a period where I learned and taught 4, 5, and 6, ultimately Parker had me abanbdon them because they were not anatomically suitable to my lessons, and/or contain sequences that are incompatable with the overall philosophy of what became SL-4 that could not be adjusted or compensated for.

I also was shown all of the examples and worked the physical terminology for the Knife set which became Form 8, but never learned in a set. The Form 8 / Knife Set is impractical in real life, and if used as designed will get you some serious felony jail time. Even possession would get you locked down in California where all martial arts weapons are a felony. By the way, I never learned the nuchauku set but I don't think very many did.

Mr. Parker was also working on four different club sets that had law enforcement implications in applications, but for various reasons he abandoned them in favor of stringing techniques together modified with "sticks" to create a "Club Set," which subsequently became Form 7. It too is impractical and Parker only created it for the "Weapons Forms Division" at his IKC, so it really didn't matter.

SubLevel Four also has sets that are only found in SL-4, like specialized INDEX SETS, KICKING SETS, and STANCE SETS.

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

Doc,
Just so I understand you correctly. Did you say that you do the forms thru long 3 only? That would make sense to me since short and long 3 are against pushes and grabs. Form 4 is against punchs, kicks + puch kick attacks. Form 5 is the take down/fulcrum form and 6 is all weapons. I am curious why you would not do the others since you do the techniques :idunno: As you teach the forms is the timing any different then traditional kenpo?

SL4 is the 4 range so I am assuming (Bad habbit when your taking to a guy with a PhD I know.) that is why you stop at long 3. Is that correct or am I really confused again?

Please enlighten me.

As always Doc !

Thanks

 

[Doc]

Doc,
Just so I understand you correctly. Did you say that you do the forms thru long 3 only? That would make sense to me since short and long 3 are against pushes and grabs.

Why would that make sense to you?

Form 4 is against punchs, kicks + puch kick attacks. Form 5 is the take down/fulcrum form and 6 is all weapons. I am curious why you would not do the others since you do the techniques.

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

As you teach the forms is the timing any different then traditional kenpo?

SL-4 forms and sets are unique. Where there is a cross over, they are essentially reconizable but executed with a realistic practicality anatomical sound mandate.

SL4 is the 4 range so I am assuming that is why you stop at long 3. Is that correct or am I really confused again?

I'm beginning to get the impression you think SL-4 ONLY works at distance 4, and its subcategories. That would be incorrect. SL-4 has all the ranges of other interpretations of Kenpo PLUS all of the subcategories. In other words, complete.

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

Doc,

I was thinking (Everyone duck!) that SL4 is the level beyond contact manipulation (out of contact, within contact, contact penitration, contact manipulation then SL4). That being said I was assuming that you stoped at long 3 because of that exact reason. Do you teach forms 4, 5 & 6 ? If not, why not. I am under the impression that form 4 in the most important form in the system.

Also, could you please explain what you ment by "realistic practicality anatomical sound mandate". You got all smart on me and I am having trouble reaching that PhD level (Remember just a M.S. here)! :idunno:


I am not under the assumption that SL4 is only for pushes/grabs + holds/hugs so if I mentioned somthing that lead you in that direction I am sorry. :asian:

Thanks as always!

 

[Doc]

Doc,
I was thinking (Everyone duck!) that SL4 is the level beyond contact manipulation (out of contact, within contact, contact penitration, contact manipulation then SL4).

You're not completely off base. What you missed is the same as in Motion Kenpo-Karate. As you get closer to your attacker, the distance emcompasses everything that comes before it. Even in Motion Kenpo-Karate distance 4 INCLUDES distances 1, 2, and 3.

In SubLevel Four Kenpo™ the same holds true, but it also includes all of the subcategories at each distance.

That being said I was assuming that you stoped at long 3 because of that exact reason.

That would be incorrect. We stop at what is called in Motion Kenpo-Karate Long 3 because it has no validity in their entirety relative to our execution and training philosophy.

Do you teach forms 4, 5 & 6 ? If not, why not. I am under the impression that form 4 in the most important form in the system.

Perhaps that is true within your interpretation. What you should never do is make assumptions about what you call a "system" that is really a series of conceptual ideas interpreted differently from teacher to teacher. Some good, many bad.

Also, could you please explain what you ment by "realistic practicality anatomical sound mandate". You got all smart on me and I am having trouble reaching that PhD level (Remember just a M.S. here)! :idunno:

An MS is just fine. Translation: "It's based on anatomy first, the philosophy of application second, and most important - its gotta work for real for students and teachers."

I am not under the assumption that SL4 is only for pushes/grabs + holds/hugs so if I mentioned somthing that lead you in that direction I am sorry.

You are not the first to make that mistake. Some think its all about nerve strikes. Others thought it was all manipulations. The truth is its all emcompassing and when viewed from an uneducated perspective, few can actually see the difference. But you most certainly can and will feel the difference. May I suggest you go over to KenpoTalk where we have had discussions along this line previously. I feel certain most of the questions you might have will be answered there.

Thanks.

http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23
http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85

 

[Kenpo_man]

Interesting conceptually and an intriguing intellectual exercise, but remember the goal is to defend yourself in the real world, not the intellectual one sir.

Exactly right. I think too many martial artists forget there is going to be somebody in front of them when they actually need to defend themselves.

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

Doc,

I guess I never really thought about the forms that way. Thanks for opening a door for me.

 

[Doc]

Doc,

I guess I never really thought about the forms that way. Thanks for opening a door for me.

Piece of cake, it's all those other doors you gotta look out for.

 

[Flying Crane]

Many people have given their thoughts about how this strike should be done, and I think perhaps the lesson to be learned is that most, if not all, of the suggestions are valid. I don't think it makes sense to get too hung up on the fine details of exactly the textbook technique. The body has many sensitive targets, often located near each other. Feel free to hit any of them, depending on what might be exposed and unprotected.


michael

 

[Doc]

Many people have given their thoughts about how this strike should be done, and I think perhaps the lesson to be learned is that most, if not all, of the suggestions are valid. I don't think it makes sense to get too hung up on the fine details of exactly the textbook technique. The body has many sensitive targets, often located near each other. Feel free to hit any of them, depending on what might be exposed and unprotected.
michael

Then you sir would miss the whole point of learning sequential movements and their applications. Why not just get an acupuncture chart, and learn all the weak points and avoid all those pesky forms, sets, and techniques? There are reasons these things exist.

 

[Flying Crane]

Then you sir would miss the whole point of learning sequential movements and their applications. Why not just get an acupuncture chart, and learn all the weak points and avoid all those pesky forms, sets, and techniques? There are reasons these things exist.

nope, don't think so. The sequential movement teaches you a viable method of delivering an attack, which can be effective against many different targets. Application of a self-defense technique is a dynamic situation where circumstances change quickly. This change doesn't matter if you aren't too attached to the target you think you are supposed to hit, rather than the target that is available, and still effective.

 

[DavidCC]

As someone who is still climbing that leanring curve (feeling like sisyphus sometimes), the sequential techniques are teaching me how to flow from one target to the next. Perhaps, Flying Crane, you have forgoten what it was like to be an un-coordinated beginner


And also I think that there is a value above and beyond just that; some sequential techniqes offer a "benefit" or effect that is greater than just the sum of the parts. at the most simple level, for example, inducing the opponent to bend forward so that they collide with a rising knee. But even deeper that that too...

 

[Doc]

nope, don't think so. The sequential movement teaches you a viable method of delivering an attack, which can be effective against many different targets. Application of a self-defense technique is a dynamic situation where circumstances change quickly. This change doesn't matter if you aren't too attached to the target you think you are supposed to hit, rather than the target that is available, and still effective.

I don't think we are in too much of a disagreement sir, however the tendancy in training to "cut to the shorthand" is what is wrong in most training today. There is much, much more to learn than "how to hit, and what to hit." But like I said, I think for the most part we agree sir.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't think we are in too much of a disagreement sir, however the tendancy in training to "cut to the shorthand" is what is wrong in most training today. There is much, much more to learn than "how to hit, and what to hit." But like I said, I think for the most part we agree sir.

right-on. I think there are a million and one ways to analyze this stuff, but we can get to the same end. Many paths are the "right" path and get you to where you need to be.

michael

 

[Flying Crane]

As someone who is still climbing that leanring curve (feeling like sisyphus sometimes), the sequential techniques are teaching me how to flow from one target to the next. Perhaps, Flying Crane, you have forgoten what it was like to be an un-coordinated beginner


And also I think that there is a value above and beyond just that; some sequential techniqes offer a "benefit" or effect that is greater than just the sum of the parts. at the most simple level, for example, inducing the opponent to bend forward so that they collide with a rising knee. But even deeper that that too...

Hi David,

well, I hope I have not forgotten what it is like to be a beginner. I have been training with a sifu in Chinese martial arts for about eight years now, and no matter what I do, all I hear from him is "hmmm.... it's ...ok...,needs more work!"

My comments about the technique are a product of the fact that I have wrestled with these issues for many years. I have always felt that kenpo is a great system and has a lot of really useful stuff in it. I have also felt that Tracys kenpo, which I train, has, maybe, too much stuff in it. Tracys kept everything from the early days, while Parker made modifications and looked for ways to streamline the curriculum in an attempt to make the system better. Consequently, I have always questioned how well I would really be able to use my techniques (thankfully, I have never had my life put on the line to test this!). It is really easy to get wrapped up in all the different techniques, and all the different variations that go along with them. It can be overwhelming, and, I believe, can cause an overload that prevents you from doing anything (or at least anything effective). In light of this, I have taken a critical eye to my kenpo, and have begun really looking for the "meat" of the technique. Get past all the fluff and the variations, and look for the useful concept that the technique contains. And that concept can be applied all over the place. So, if the sequential movement teaches a way to deliver a strike, that strike can be applied under many circumstances. I think it doesn't matter, when it comes to real application, if you hit the target exactly as it is prescribed in the "textbook". What matters is that the idea of how to deliver the strike effectively was used to deliver an effective strike, to an effective target. I do tend to ramble, but I hope this helps you understand where I am comming from.

Michael

 

[Doc]

Hi David,

well, I hope I have not forgotten what it is like to be a beginner. I have been training with a sifu in Chinese martial arts for about eight years now, and no matter what I do, all I hear from him is "hmmm.... it's ...ok...,needs more work!"

My comments about the technique are a product of the fact that I have wrestled with these issues for many years. I have always felt that kenpo is a great system and has a lot of really useful stuff in it. I have also felt that Tracys kenpo, which I train, has, maybe, too much stuff in it. Tracys kept everything from the early days, while Parker made modifications and looked for ways to streamline the curriculum in an attempt to make the system better. Consequently, I have always questioned how well I would really be able to use my techniques (thankfully, I have never had my life put on the line to test this!). It is really easy to get wrapped up in all the different techniques, and all the different variations that go along with them. It can be overwhelming, and, I believe, can cause an overload that prevents you from doing anything (or at least anything effective). In light of this, I have taken a critical eye to my kenpo, and have begun really looking for the "meat" of the technique. Get past all the fluff and the variations, and look for the useful concept that the technique contains. And that concept can be applied all over the place. So, if the sequential movement teaches a way to deliver a strike, that strike can be applied under many circumstances. I think it doesn't matter, when it comes to real application, if you hit the target exactly as it is prescribed in the "textbook". What matters is that the idea of how to deliver the strike effectively was used to deliver an effective strike, to an effective target. I do tend to ramble, but I hope this helps you understand where I am comming from.

Michael

It's hard to know, what you don't know.
"hmmm.... it's ...ok..., needs more work!"