Lowering the Gate

[jfarnsworth]

Sounds like we do this one a little different, the upward block is done with a claw to catch his face as he bends forward from the middle-knuckle fist to the groin.

I would believe that action would be better put in as a self defense situation. That's a good move if you can make it work. That movement is covered in long 2 not in short 2 which is the topic of discussion.

 

[jfarnsworth]

that is obsurd... we wouldn't be practicing something in a form over and over to learn how NOT to do something. how NOT to do something would be demonstrated like once, and shown WHY~

I agree. :asian:

 

[jfarnsworth]

Actually Pete, there are a lot of people who would disagree with you here.

Fair enough but I agree with Pete. :asian:

I have heard many people (including several high-ranking Kenpo seniors) say that executing a vertical middle-knuckle rake down the body will cause you injury since it doesn't have a brace and that this move was designed to teach you how not to strike.

I agree with not having a brace with the strike but would you agree or disagree that if I had a tight fist then hit someone downward in the solar plexus would or would not be a good strike. That move is used with gravitational marriage as well to help with the power of the strike?

 

[jfarnsworth]

As far as the "raking" whateveryouwantocallit, an extended middle knuckle raking down the ribcage has no anatomical merit, and perhaps is the reason some have sought to explain or find an alternate application..

I called it a raking motion as that is what we call it at the studio I attend. This movement travels down the vertical line, correct? It doesn't use a thrust or straight linear movement... at least to my knowledge. In following the methods of execution I don't believe it hammers, slices, thrusts, snaps, claws, hooks, or roundhouses. Maybe shed some light on it Sir, if you don't mind? :asian:

 

[Drifter]

I'm also curious as to what the purpose is then.

I was passing along what I had heard (probably not the best policy), along with my added hypothesis. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, not my intention.

 

[KenpoTex]

I would believe that action would be better put in as a self defense situation. That's a good move if you can make it work. That movement is covered in long 2 not in short 2 which is the topic of discussion.

I'm not sure what you are calling an Eagle's Beak? Are you talking about when v-stepping towards 6 and 12 in a wide kneel stance(s) executing the upward blocks with the downward vertical raking middle knuckle strike?

^
This move from Short-2 is what we're talking about right? I was taught to do the technique from short-2 in the manner I described earlier. After seeing descriptions of the way that others do this punch (vertical fist with downward raking motion), I have to say that I don't care for the idea of raking downward with a vertical middle-knuckle. It seems to me that this would put too much stress on the middle finger in a direction where it has no reinforcement. I think this strike is more suited to the horizontal raking motion as found in Leaping Crane, or as a linear strike as in parting wings. I would imagine that this is why I learned it this way, I guess at some point someone (either my instructor, or his) decided this one worked better as a punch than as a rake.

Just my $0.02

 

[jaybacca72]

i don't think that the techniques were designed what not to do,i think that they were made and as the art progressed as well as EP SR. the move was placed in the you shouldn't do this because... ie intellectual departure turning your back to your opponent. just my 2 cents worth
later
jay artyon:

 

[Seabrook]

Category completion is a motion concept I don't subscribe to for what I consider obvious reasons illustrated here.

I tend to agree with you Doc, but there are some, particularly the Huk Planas lineage, that swear by it.

About the middle knuckle strike in Short 2, I didn't say I agree with what other seniors say about the move, I'm just relaying what I have heard other seniors (now 10th Degrees) say.

Many that push the notion of category completion also argue that there are "don't do" techniques in our system. These include moves like Circling Windmills, Blinding Sacrifice, and Gathering Clouds. I prefer to listen to both sides of the camp to make my own opinions.

In that sense, I'm kinda like Anaklin, take a little bit of the Jedi way, but listen to the dark side as well, lol. Just don't be like Obi-wan and kick my a!# for me listening in on the category completion stuff.

Till next time,

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Doc]

I tend to agree with you Doc, but there are some, particularly the Huk Planas lineage, that swear by it.

About the middle knuckle strike in Short 2, I didn't say I agree with what other seniors say about the move, I'm just relaying what I have heard other seniors (now 10th Degrees) say.

Many that push the notion of category completion also argue that there are "don't do" techniques in our system. These include moves like Circling Windmills, Blinding Sacrifice, and Gathering Clouds. I prefer to listen to both sides of the camp to make my own opinions.

In that sense, I'm kinda like Anaklin, take a little bit of the Jedi way, but listen to the dark side as well, lol. Just don't be like Obi-wan and kick my a!# for me listening in on the category completion stuff.

Till next time,

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Actually I never thought for a moment that you believed that answer, but as I said you basically just, "threw it out there." Yes there are a lot of "throw away" techniques in motion-kenpo that simple won't work or make no sense in application essentially by design, but not because they weren't intended to work.

For the record; I come from the non-motion dark side myself. (On my Mother's side).

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I thought you said your mother was Scotch-Irish?

Aw, hell. I just pictured you in a kilt, and the rest of my day is ruined. :rofl:

Back to the grind...

DC

 

[Doc]

I thought you said your mother was Scotch-Irish?

Aw, hell. I just pictured you in a kilt, and the rest of my day is ruined. :rofl:

Back to the grind...

DC

That's a mental image I didn't need either.

 

[jaybacca72]

for the record huk doesn't say don't do these techniques he says that you shouldn't because... as far as category completion goes it is a teaching method for understanding motion kenpo i use it to explain some of the why's but it is not gospel nor is it to huk and his lineage, if you truly understand his teaching style. i will have to suffice with motion kenpo for now or at least with the sub 4 i have been shown till i can hook up with doc in the future.
hey doc there is a clown in my town teaching sub 5 can you believe this guy?
he was supposed to teach it at cappi's camp but cancelled out probably because he knew the other instructor's would see right through him ie huk,sean,zach etc..it is too bad he is associated with someone i respected alot being a senior.
later
jay artyon:

 

[Kenpodoc]

Me neither. With all due respect to ranking seniors, or anyone else who would promote the idea that Ed Parker placed movements in a form to teach what NOT to do, over and over. That is rediculous. Of course I know some like Mr. Seabrook is just passing on what he was told, but it sounds like someone who doesn't know the answer is saying to a student the first thing that popped into his head.

I've often heard stories of how Ed Parker placed intentional mistakes in some of his work. Don't believe it. Ed Parker never did anything wrong in his life intentionally unless he was demonstrating and explaining why not to do something.

As far as the "raking" whateveryouwantocallit, an extended middle knuckle raking down the ribcage has no anatomical merit, and perhaps is the reason some have sought to explain or find an alternate application.

Category completion is a motion concept I don't subscribe to for what I consider obvious reasons illustrated here.

Mr. Parker did, however, have a sense on humor and I can see him placing something in a form to see which of his students "got it." I saw a Video of Mr. Parker narrating short 2 in the late 80's and when the student did the middle knuckle movement, Mr. Parker said "nip the tip." This being one of the few structures potentially strikable with a marraige of gravity strike down the front of a male opponent I've always assumed that this was a little joke placed by a young Mr. Parker as well as a test of his sudents.

It's a little bit of a surprise that no one has pointed out that Mr. Parker recorded 2 Man set incorrectly on purpose in his book. Since form 2 comes from an earlier period of his life I could conceive of an honest Mr. Parker following chinese tradition and inserting an error for outsiders. I still think that the rake is actually a clever joke, but I never had the pleasure of meeting him so I form this opinion on hearsay alone.

Respectfully,

Jeff

 

[jfarnsworth]

As far as the "raking" whateveryouwantocallit, an extended middle knuckle raking down the ribcage has no anatomical merit, and perhaps is the reason some have sought to explain or find an alternate application..

Would it be better defined as a downward hammerfist with a middle knuckle strike as the secondary weapon? In this form the hand does not stop directly at the solar plexus or ribs... it travels through an arc and snaps back up. The move can stay the same but maybe we can better define it? :asian:

 

[Doc]

Mr. Parker did, however, have a sense on humor and I can see him placing something in a form to see which of his students "got it." I saw a Video of Mr. Parker narrating short 2 in the late 80's and when the student did the middle knuckle movement, Mr. Parker said "nip the tip." This being one of the few structures potentially strikable with a marraige of gravity strike down the front of a male opponent I've always assumed that this was a little joke placed by a young Mr. Parker as well as a test of his sudents.

Parker did have a sense of humor sir, but never "hid" anything. The "nip the tip" joke was just that, and was not indicative of a viable strike or target in that application.

It's a little bit of a surprise that no one has pointed out that Mr. Parker recorded 2 Man set incorrectly on purpose in his book.

That is an anecdote that has floated around for years to support the "easter egg" idea of Parker hiding information within his writing. It isn't true. There were many versions of the "Two-Man Set" with multiple versions coming from Jimmy Woo. However like everything else, when someone created or contributed, Parker always put his own spin on it to make it his own. The person who knew it from another source, or who contributed would then say, "It's wrong!' but as Parker often pointed out, "How can I be wrong in my own interpretations?" The Two Man Set in the book is exactly as Parker wanted it at the time, with no intentional errors.

Since form 2 comes from an earlier period of his life I could conceive of an honest Mr. Parker following chinese tradition and inserting an error for outsiders. I still think that the rake is actually a clever joke, but I never had the pleasure of meeting him so I form this opinion on hearsay alone.

Sorry Sir, but he never did that. Those who didn't understand often found interesting explanations for what they didn't understand to pass along to students. The "joke" was on them because if they wanted to know, all they had to do was ask. If he wanted you to know, he would answer you. If he didn't want you to know, he woud tell you everything.

 

[Doc]

Would it be better defined as a downward hammerfist with a middle knuckle strike as the secondary weapon? In this form the hand does not stop directly at the solar plexus or ribs... it travels through an arc and snaps back up. The move can stay the same but maybe we can better define it? :asian:

Careful Jeff, you're coming dangerously close to making sense and thinking. Seriously, the application I was taught was similar to your explanation. It is a rising forearm underneath the chin, followed by a downward hammerfist to the clavicle. From there the the middle knuckle punches through in an arc that loops away from your attacker, than returns as an underhand hammerfist. However that is only what I was taught, and I'm not suggesting another interpretation is incorrect sir.

 

[Doc]

for the record huk doesn't say don't do these techniques he says that you shouldn't because... as far as category completion goes it is a teaching method for understanding motion kenpo i use it to explain some of the why's but it is not gospel nor is it to huk and his lineage, if you truly understand his teaching style.

No, Richard presents it for what it is, an idea to help you understand and solve problems. He doesn't say, "If you already completed these categories than now you HAVE to complete this." He doesn't promote that thinking at all.

i will have to suffice with motion kenpo for now or at least with the sub 4 i have been shown till i can hook up with doc in the future.
hey doc there is a clown in my town teaching sub 5 can you believe this guy?

Yes sir. There is more than one clown who thought he knew what Sublevel Four Kenpo was about. All of them have been wrong.

he was supposed to teach it at cappi's camp but cancelled out probably because he knew the other instructor's would see right through him ie huk,sean,zach etc..it is too bad he is associated with someone i respected alot being a senior.
later
jay artyon:

Well he seems to have fooled a few, but a look at his kenpo gives him away. He's really bad. Lately he's been trying to make some in-roads into Kenpo Camps and Seminars. Previously he traveled with some pretty prominent people from other styles, but he definitely can't hold up around kenpo people. I heard his formal training stopped around blue. I contacted the European IKC about his use of our name and they bounced him. Now he's scheduled to come to Southern California for Frank's IKC to teach a seminar, but he doesn't mention SL-4. Still I heard some of the guys wanted to go talk to him and see what he had to offer.

Whatever his kenpo is, or where it came from, I'm sure he can present himself without calling his presentation something it is not. SL-5? I thought there were only four distances in kenpo. Live and learn.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Parker did have a sense of humor sir, but never "hid" anything. The "nip the tip" joke was just that, and was not indicative of a viable strike or target in that application.

That is an anecdote that has floated around for years to support the "easter egg" idea of Parker hiding information within his writing. It isn't true. There were many versions of the "Two-Man Set" with multiple versions coming from Jimmy Woo. However like everything else, when someone created or contributed, Parker always put his own spin on it to make it his own. The person who knew it from another source, or who contributed would then say, "It's wrong!' but as Parker often pointed out, "How can I be wrong in my own interpretations?" The Two Man Set in the book is exactly as Parker wanted it at the time, with no intentional errors.

Sorry Sir, but he never did that. Those who didn't understand often found interesting explanations for what they didn't understand to pass along to students. The "joke" was on them because if they wanted to know, all they had to do was ask. If he wanted you to know, he would answer you. If he didn't want you to know, he woud tell you everything.

I didn't think it a viable target, but if executed down the centerline it might be the only minimally viable target. I much prefer your answer to Jason, however.

thanks for the response.

Jeff

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

What I understand the motion to be is catorgy completetion and the introduction to the figure 8. At that point in the form it shows the figure 8 pattern on the vertical line and at the end of the form you will see it on a horizontal line If you look at long 2 you will see the orbital switch and then compare that motion to the secquence in short 2 and you will understand the catagory completetion relationship.

Short 2
upward block (motion) with left and dowward middle knuckle rake.

Long 2
right inward block (motion) + left downward block (motion) then left upward block (motion) + right downward hammerfist.

If you will look close you will see that on the downward motion on both forms show both sides of the circle.

Doea that make sense to anyone??

Remember that kenpo forms are there to teach the rules and principle of motion, that everything have an opposit and reverse and gives an example of each.

 

[Doc]

What I understand the motion to be is catorgy completetion and the introduction to the figure 8. At that point in the form it shows the figure 8 pattern on the vertical line and at the end of the form you will see it on a horizontal line If you look at long 2 you will see the orbital switch and then compare that motion to the secquence in short 2 and you will understand the catagory completetion relationship.

Short 2
upward block (motion) with left and dowward middle knuckle rake.

Long 2
right inward block (motion) + left downward block (motion) then left upward block (motion) + right downward hammerfist.

If you will look close you will see that on the downward motion on both forms show both sides of the circle.

Doea that make sense to anyone??

Remember that kenpo forms are there to teach the rules and principle of motion, that everything have an opposit and reverse and gives an example of each.

Interesting conceptually and an intriguing intellectual exercise, but remember the goal is to defend yourself in the real world, not the intellectual one sir. The study of motion is extremely superficial in the overall scheme of things, but it is a beginning. Of course it has nothing to do with how you as a human being can, and should move to be effective. Consider that all other physically dynamic interactive activities that are performance driven study body mechanics not "motion." And their lives are not on the line, only a game. Just a thought.