Low stance or higher stances

[Kosho Gakkusei]

I'm not sure what CN means by a "kazushi position" but Kazushi is a Japanese term common in Judo and Jujutsu meaning to off balance or break an opponents balance, as has been said a key component of throwing or sweeping an opponent. Happo No Kazushi means the eight directions of off balance.

As a non-TKDer let me weigh in on the subject of stance depth. I have to agree with DArnold and LastFearner on this. Both deep and shallow stance work have their place. Deep is most useful in training to develop strength and a sense of structure & center. Shallow is most useful for application because of mobility but deep rooted stances can be useful for "finishing blows" and grappling. Personally I prefer using Sanchin (toes pointed inward) type stances for the applications requiring rooting.

_Don Flatt

 

[howard]

I'm not sure what CN means by a "kazushi position" but Kazushi is a Japanese term common in Judo and Jujutsu meaning to off balance or break an opponents balance, as has been said a key component of throwing or sweeping an opponent.

Thanks, I'm actually quite familiar with the principle of kuzushi.

I was just curious to understand CN's comments.

btw, looks like some of us non-TKD'ers have hijacked this thread away from its original context, which I believe was somewhat specific to TKD... perhaps we should start another one somewhere to discuss stances in the context of Jujutsu, Judo, Hapkido, etc.?

 

[terryl965]

Thanks, I'm actually quite familiar with the principle of kuzushi.

I was just curious to understand CN's comments.

btw, looks like some of us non-TKD'ers have hijacked this thread away from its original context, which I believe was somewhat specific to TKD... perhaps we should start another one somewhere to discuss stances in the context of Jujutsu, Judo, Hapkido, etc.?

Since I started the thread it is great to see so many different styles and the way they conclude there stances.

 

[howard]

Thanks Terry... I appreciate that.

 

[CuongNhuka]

CuongNhuka, I'm glad you put "LOL" because I hope you weren't serious! If you are responding to my post which quoted you so much, it has nothing to do with not liking you! This is just a matter of having different viewpoints, differences of opinions and experiences, and perhaps different ways of expressing our thoughts. It is good to have this kind of friendly discourse, so please don't be offended if I offer counter claims to some things you say. It only means that I value your input, and wish to weigh it fairly against mine.

Of course I'm kidding. I was also expecting more of a discussion on this matter. Or do you not feel like haveing this conversation with me either?

 

[CuongNhuka]

What do you mean by "kazushi" position, and directions of kazushi?

As Kosho said, I was referring to the poistions of the basic Happo no Kazushi directions/positions.
As a testimate "wide stances are a good thing", I figured out how to get to each position by going from a "natural stance" (think Ap Seogi) to a "forward stance" (think Ap Gubi) for position 1, 5, and 7 (and going sort of for 6 and 8). And going from natural stance to "side stance" (think Horse stance) for number 3 and 4. Number 2 came from a Cuong Nhu stance that is Vietnamese in origin, and doesn't seem to have a Karate/Tae Kwon Do version. But, it is ruffly equal to wide deep back stance (in both styles).

However, I do feel that short/shallow stances are usefull also. They are more "pre-fight" to "mid-fight" stances. Think of it in a modified version of what Bruce Lee taught about ranges. He said there is kicking, punching, trapping/clinch, and grappling.
Mine is a little differnit. Not fighting (in a natural, non-threating poistion, but still defensible), out of range (more for most weapons), kicking range (should be a semi-wide stance, kicks tend to be easier to fire off since wide stances have a natural "spiriness"), punching range (should be a shorter shallower stance, since this is were mobility is key), and clinching (should be natural as well, but should move to wide stances to avoid throws and use them). Then we get to the ground, and I get a head ache trying to figure that out.

So, I do think shorter stances are useful. Infact, I would classify myself a puncher, therefore, I use shorter stances alot anyways. But, I do use wide stances alot as well. The entire reason I posted in this thread in the first place was because of the implication that wide stances are not for fighting.

 

[Kacey]

The entire reason I posted in this thread in the first place was because of the implication that wide stances are not for fighting.

"Wide" stances do not, for me, equate to "low" stances - the original topic was high vs. low, not wide vs. narrow. The two are, to me, different aspects of stance; height (high vs. low) is determined by the bend in the knees, the distance between the feet measure from front heel to rear toes, and/or the height of the hips above the ground; width (wide vs. narrow) is determined by the distance between the feet, usually from instep to instep. Both are important facets of stance, but they are not interchangeable, which is why I describe my definition of height and width in regard to stances.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

"Wide" stances do not, for me, equate to "low" stances - the original topic was high vs. low, not wide vs. narrow. The two are, to me, different aspects of stance; height (high vs. low) is determined by the bend in the knees, the distance between the feet measure from front heel to rear toes, and/or the height of the hips above the ground; width (wide vs. narrow) is determined by the distance between the feet, usually from instep to instep. Both are important facets of stance, but they are not interchangeable, which is why I describe my definition of height and width in regard to stances.

Very true. But it's very difficult to make a narrow stance very deep and to a certain extent very wide stances can't be done high. For training I may use a stance that is wider than I would use in a fight and make it really deep as this would promote leg strength. In application to fighting I'd be more apt to using a semi-wide stance and dropping my center of gravity to root the stance.

My observation of stances as pertaining to Kazushi are as follows:

Deeper/Wider stances add greater stability to the lower base. This makes it harder to sweep or perform leverage based throws. Once one begins to move from the stance they no longer have the integrity of a low stance and can be thrown or swept. Also, low stances have weakness on the upperbody when force is applied in the correct direction. For example front to back or back to front on a horse stance in other words perpendicular to the direction of your feet. Or at 45 degree angle frontward or backward on a front stance. One reason I prefer Sanchin (toes in) type stances for rooted applications is that they eliminate this upper base weakness from a frontward direction.

Higher/Shorter stances enhance mobility. They are more susceptable to sweeps and leverage based throws but sweeps and throws can be avoided easier by moving pre-emtively or shifting your weight or even possibly stepping down into a deeper stance. The higher stances weakness are on the lower base. So, when force is applied to the upper body the lower body is able to better compensate so the angular weakness is not translated as on the deeper stances.

A good way to test the integrity, strengths, & weaknesses of your stances would be to assume the stance then have a partner push on you from all directions on both your upper and lower body.

_Don Flatt

 

[CuongNhuka]

"Wide" stances do not, for me, equate to "low" stances - the original topic was high vs. low, not wide vs. narrow. The two are, to me, different aspects of stance; height (high vs. low) is determined by the bend in the knees, the distance between the feet measure from front heel to rear toes, and/or the height of the hips above the ground; width (wide vs. narrow) is determined by the distance between the feet, usually from instep to instep. Both are important facets of stance, but they are not interchangeable, which is why I describe my definition of height and width in regard to stances.

That is true. I tend to use the two words enterchangably, since in Cuong Nhu if a stance is wide, it's deep; if it's short, it's shallow. Simple as that. So, the two flow together in my mind. I know that isn't the same with all styles, but it's been too heavily ingrained in me.

 

[CuongNhuka]

My observation of stances as pertaining to Kazushi are as follows:

So, when going to a Kazushi position (from Happo No Kazushi), do you perfer to 'lunge' into the direction while maintaining a short/shallow stance, or do you perfer to step into a wide stance?

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

So, when going to a Kazushi position (from Happo No Kazushi), do you perfer to 'lunge' into the direction while maintaining a short/shallow stance, or do you perfer to step into a wide stance?

I'm not 100% sure what you're asking.

If you're asking about footwork I use when getting Kazushi on an opponent then it depends on what type of Nage (throw) I'm doing. To get Kazushi for a leverage based throw I'll most likely use a wider/deep stance. More often in Kosho, we use positioning to get the opponent to throw themselves. Somewhat like Aiki(do/justsu) but less effort and movement on my part. In that case, mobility is paramount so I'd probably need the short/shallow stance.

If your asking what footwork is best to recover once you're in a state of Kazushi, I'd say in most cases the wider/deeper stance will help you recover best.

_Don Flatt

 

[CuongNhuka]

I'm not 100% sure what you're asking.

If you're asking about footwork I use when getting Kazushi on an opponent then it depends on what type of Nage (throw) I'm doing. To get Kazushi for a leverage based throw I'll most likely use a wider/deep stance. More often in Kosho, we use positioning to get the opponent to throw themselves. Somewhat like Aiki(do/justsu) but less effort and movement on my part. In that case, mobility is paramount so I'd probably need the short/shallow stance.

If your asking what footwork is best to recover once you're in a state of Kazushi, I'd say in most cases the wider/deeper stance will help you recover best.

_Don Flatt

A little bit of both. Along with when you're using Kazushi as a probing technique. I perfer to step into a deep stance, but anouther gentleman in my school likes to 'lunge' forward, and end in a short stance. I've noticed it makes it so he is more mobile, but I can set up low throws easier (such as Tai Otoshi).