Looking for some Self-defense and Martial Arts Assumptions

[Blitz]

also the idea that fights are like sparring, dont get me wrong sparring is good . but most fights are a one sided beating and over in seconds.

 

[jobo]

That you'll actually have chance to get in your fighting stance, most of the fights i have been in the guy was either real close or in my face. if i would of got into my fighting stance it would of telegraphed what i was going to do, this is also why i now spend some of my training striking from my normal talking stance.

You have a talking stance? do you have to get in position before you can speak?

 

[Blitz]

no i meant the way you normally stand when talking to someone lol not really a stance rotfl dont know why i called it that rotfl

 

[SOD-WC]

Right and there are those (I know of several) who think having strength and that weight training for body building makes one good at self defense and fighting. Movies are great at pushing and maintaining such myths. Most in the martial arts know and understand good physical fitness is a must for most good self defense situations though there are some individuals who may not.

But as the person looking for a fight would they not look for a smaller weak looking person over a beefed up body builder with stunning figure? (In a random assult)

If the guys a dick then he'll be in a fight no matter what he look or does.

 

[Dirty Dog]

But as the person looking for a fight would they not look for a smaller weak looking person over a beefed up body builder with stunning figure? (In a random assult)

Not necessarily. I can't count how many people I've seen in the ER with a bad case of beer muscles who act in precisely the opposite way. They're totally chill with smaller staff, but get aggressive when any of our bigger people walk in.

 

[jobo]

But as the person looking for a fight would they not look for a smaller weak looking person over a beefed up body builder with stunning figure? (In a random assult)

If the guys a dick then he'll be in a fight no matter what he look or does.

Yes, if they are rational, they inStead Shout from a distance, but if they are full of beer they will fight anybody. Beer as every one knows makes you more attractive to women and able to fight to a good staNdard

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But the discussion is not the myths of excessive or weight lifting, it's the myths of ma. And one such myth, is you can adequately defend your self, with out physical fitness to a good level and then with out meaning full training against a moving target, that hits back, if you study ma with out this, your ma only in the context that a name can mean anything you want it to. Like saying your a student of quantum mechanics, whilst watching you tube, it's sort of true, but is slightly bending reality

I think the point was more along the lines of engineering. Someone could be a very good engineering student, without having any application experience and may not be able to translate theory into application. So, while they are good at "engineering", they are not a good engineer. (For this reason, engineering schools tend to include internship-type work late in the curriculum.)

And given the range of common definitions of what makes one a "martial artist", I think it's a valid distinction that being a good one (by some definitions) doesn't translate to fighting ability, at all.

I'd add that there's a whole range of stuff (the part I refer to as "self-protection") that's often not address, or not addressed well, in MA curricula.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Don't forget the infamous Dim Mak, the Touch Of Death.

I'd go a bit further. I think there's a common mythology about the reliability of most pressure points. I'm moderately trained in a fair number of them, and can reliably execute them on students in classes...except when I run into that student who doesn't feel one. And that doesn't even account for lower precision under stress, nor the reduced pain response of a hypothetical attacker. And I've seen the idea of pain compliance over-emphasized.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A black belt or champion (of any championship) is a master in martial arts.

A good fighter is a good instructor. Or, a good instructor needs to be a good fighter.

And that a master (however that term is used) is somehow either invincible or infallible.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I watch and listen to classes/trainings. This is what they have in common
In (nearly) every MA-oriented self defense class/training for women and girls:

the threat is:

* a stranger
* happens 'on the street'
* is sudden
* overwhelming force
* occurrs at night
* occurrs 'because she was not alert to her surroundings'

Instructors/teachers reluctantly admit they know very little about actual sexual assault,
and shrug their shoulders (or do the equivalent in print) and continue to do the same.

They stay in their 'safe place'.

While I agree with much of this, I also think there's a valid reason why most don't get into that other area. I don't think martial arts is the solution to some areas of attack. Someone "gently" coerced (meaning using power and persuasion, rather than force) isn't going to find much prevention in the training from MA, except perhaps through increased confidence and awareness of their own worth (side effects of MA training and other activities).

Sorry to get into replies, @JowGaWolf - this one's important to dig into a bit. I think aedrasteia's post points out an important myth: that MA training for SD is a panacea, and that it addresses all manner of personal safety. It doesn't in the overwhelming majority of cases, and we should be honest with ourselves (and students) about the limitations of what we're trying to do.

 

[Balrog]

I'd go a bit further. I think there's a common mythology about the reliability of most pressure points. I'm moderately trained in a fair number of them, and can reliably execute them on students in classes...except when I run into that student who doesn't feel one. And that doesn't even account for lower precision under stress, nor the reduced pain response of a hypothetical attacker. And I've seen the idea of pain compliance over-emphasized.

I agree - pressure points do work nicely, and so does pain compliance.....99% of the time. We have to be prepared for that 1% where hitting a pressure point simply annoys them because they're in a meth rage or whatever.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Right and there are those (I know of several) who think having strength and that weight training for body building makes one good at self defense and fighting. Movies are great at pushing and maintaining such myths. Most in the martial arts know and understand good physical fitness is a must for most good self defense situations though there are some individuals who may not.

I'll actually say I think there are branches of MA where this isn't properly understood by a large number of the proponents.

 

[jobo]

I think the point was more along the lines of engineering. Someone could be a very good engineering student, without having any application experience and may not be able to translate theory into application. So, while they are good at "engineering", they are not a good engineer. (For this reason, engineering schools tend to include internship-type work late in the curriculum.)

And given the range of common definitions of what makes one a "martial artist", I think it's a valid distinction that being a good one (by some definitions) doesn't translate to fighting ability, at all.

I'd add that there's a whole range of stuff (the part I refer to as "self-protection") that's often not address, or not addressed well, in MA curricula.

This is just going to disappear down a semantically raBbit hole. People can call themselves and what they do anything they want until they run into the law,

The rest of the world has various expectations as to what things mean, if I order a home mechanic and he can't fix my car as he has no practical experiance, I'm not going to consider him a mechanic, no matter what he calls himself. I had this where one guy turned up, told me what was wrong with the car, fuel injection, a fact I told him on the phone and then wanted a100 quid for the diagnosis, as he didn't have the knowledge to fix it.

Like wise, if your martial arts are some what light on the martial aspects, selling your services as a martial artist would come close to False advertising, unless you included a rider, " can't fight"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

no i meant the way you normally stand when talking to someone lol not really a stance rotfl dont know why i called it that rotfl

We use the Japanese term "shizentai", which I think means "normal stance". Why don't we just say "normal stance"? Because "shizentai" sounds MUCH more martial-artsy!

 

[Danny T]

Yeah...when I look back on my late teen to mid twenty years I'm amazed as to how many stupid people showed up every time I enjoyed my share of bourbon.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is just going to disappear down a semantically raBbit hole. People can call themselves and what they do anything they want until they run into the law,

The rest of the world has various expectations as to what things mean, if I order a home mechanic and he can't fix my car as he has no practical experiance, I'm not going to consider him a mechanic, no matter what he calls himself. I had this where one guy turned up, told me what was wrong with the car, fuel injection, a fact I told him on the phone and then wanted a100 quid for the diagnosis, as he didn't have the knowledge to fix it.

Like wise, if your martial arts are some what light on the martial aspects, selling your services as a martial artist would come close to False advertising

That's what I meant. If someone has a definition of "good martial artist" that doesn't intrinsically include good skills for fighting (and many do), and thinks being a "good martial artist" makes them good at fighting (to say nothing of the non-fighting areas needed for SD/SP), they are in mythland. So, yeah, it's about the semantics, absolutely.

 

[Danny T]

I'll actually say I think there are branches of MA where this isn't properly understood by a large number of the proponents.

Yes I know some as such but I know far more who understand good fitness is important.

 

[jobo]

Yes I know some as such but I know far more who understand good fitness is important.

If people and quite a lot do, engage in ma for among other things it's fitness benifits, then they will only develop fitness as given by the class, which may not actually be a " good" standard of fitness. Saying they understand it's importance is not the same as actually deliveribg/ developing a " good " standard of fitness

 

[dvcochran]

You know what. I actually did forget about that. The touch of death. There is also an assumption about pressure point fighting as well but I don't know how to word it at the moment. The assumption that I'm talking about is the one where people think hitting a pressure point is going to be easy when someone is trying to knock your head off.

The assumption that the same pressure point attack will work on everyone. Muscle makeup simply voids some pressure points.
Flying Kung Fu and Matrix type guys.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If people and quite a lot do, engage in ma for among other things it's fitness benifits, then they will only develop fitness as given by the class, which may not actually be a " good" standard of fitness. Saying they understand it's importance is not the same as actually deliveribg/ developing a " good " standard of fitness

You're right - there's a difference between what people know/understand, and how they act on that information.

If you're referring to the classes delivering a good standard of fitness, that's not even really possible for most. Most students attend a couple of classes a week. Even if we spent 30 minutes of those classes on fitness, that would still not be enough to deliver that level for most people (and most students won't be satisfied with a class that is 1/3 to 1/2 not "martial arts"). They have to do it outside class to get there.