With all apologies to Bob here if I mis-represent things, there are a few things that need clarifiction.
I have to ask the moderators something this is what the Ninjutsu Thread says right:
First, a disclaimer. I am not a Moderator (as evidenced by my banner above), so anything I say here is not to be taken as an official stance from this site. However on the topic of what is Ninjutsu, and how it is classified, I may be able to offer something of a more complete opinion.
Ninjutsu - General Discussion Surrounded by much controversy, today's "ninjutsu" is derived from the traditional fighting arts associated with the Iga/Koga region of Japan. We welcome members from all Nin-po schools.
You may want to re-read that a little more clearly, then. It states that we classify as Ninjutsu arts that art:
derived from the TRADITIONAL fighting arts associated with the Iga/Koga region of Japan. What it doesn't say is that we accept anyone who's only claim to this is an ill-appropriated name as a link, with nothing even close to resembling anything like a Japanese system, traditional or otherwise, whose ideas and teachings go completely against every piece of evidence and the history of Japan.
But yet unless if the practitioner trains in the Bujinkan or one of its off-shoots that they personally belong to according to Martial Talk's standards they are fakes and frauds.
Simply because the arts passed down from Takamatsu are the only ones that have been shown to have any link historically to the aforementioned criteria. We don't class the others as "fakes and frauds" due to anything other than the claims of being linked with historical systems that they are not. It's the same, really, as someone claiming to have graduated from Harvard when they live in France, and have never even visited the campus. Does in mean that they didn't go to a college? No, but if they claim to be a Harvard graduate, that is fraudulent.
Even though they trained with Masaaki Hatsumi at time or another like Stephen Hayes,
Steve Hayes is considered legitimate as he trained for many years in a legit system. Although he puts his own spin on things, his background is legit.
Bob was one of the early students in the art, however he became rather removed from the Takamatsuden systems fairly early on. His approach is rather different, and is based on his TKD as much as anything else. While he is a legitimate martial artist, that is very different from claiming what he presents as legitimate Ninjutsu, which he hasn't done for a very long time.
Bansenshukai Ninjutsu is based primarily in Bujinkan teachings, so no-one is calling them fakes either. Just not Bujinkan, but that's not the same thing.
Again, Jeffery is a member of the Bujinkan. His online and home training (although he himself says that that is far from the ideal) may be frowned upon, but he's again not a fake or fraud in any way... not sure where you're pulling this list from.
Ah, now Robert is the best example you've given here. Like a few others he has some legitimate background, but he basically abandoned that for a fantasy, his site shows many major issues in regard to basic understanding of Japanese martial arts in general, and Ninjutsu in particular. For more evidence that he's rather, uh, out there, check out his bio:
http://www.ninja-training.com/grandmaster/
If you think there is still a claim for legitimacy here, you really need to get out of the comic books.
and the list goes on to include members on this thread (Hey Brain didn't you do the same thing that they did and break away from the Bujinkan and Hatsumi to develop Instinctive Response Training ?)
As Brian has said, he has in no way split from the Bujinkan. What you are talking about here is that he is honest in that what he teaches is not purely Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Not really sure what your point is.
and the schools they belong to (Chris, even though you say you're not part of the Bujinkan your school is linked to the Bujinkan and teaches their style of Ninjutsu. So what does that make you as much as you tell people here you are not part of the organization YOU'RE PART OF THE BUJINKAN BECAUSE YOU ARE STUDYING THEIR STYLE!!!!).
Okay, you don't seem to get the difference between the art and the organisation. We are not linked with the Bujinkan, as the Bujinkan is the organisation headed by Hatsumi. We teach the arts that we learnt as part of the Bujinkan, but that's different. And as we can demonstrate a history including the association as put forth in the description, we pass.
Oh, and don't try yelling at me, son, again I'm still playing nice here. That can change.
I also noticed that you guys don't enforce your own rules that you try to follow like the fraud busting rule with how you say that you welcome all Ninpo schools including Koga Ryu which everyone has deemed here a fraudulent system.
No, we do not say we accept Koga Ryu as it doesn't exist anymore. We say we accept traditional (historical) systems that originated in the Iga and Koga regions, which is rather different. Again, you may want to actually read what you post if you wish to actually contribute to discussion.
But as soon as they enter you guys go after them and tell them that if it isn't Bujinkan or Togakure Ryu Budo Taijitsu you're a fake and a fraud.
Again, if the art doesn't have the connection to the historical fighting arts of Iga and Koga in Japan, then it doesn't pass. A made-up system that follows no connection or resemblance to anything Japanese whatsoever does not pass. If you can't get past that idea, again, you are not going to have much to say that we can agree on.
Which you can reference this thread as well as other numerous ones too that you guys don't enforce the rules either and let people get away with things like trying to fraud bust people and even you guys admit Masaaki Hatsumi's lineage to Ninjutsu is questionable as well.
We don't fraudbust here in that we don't actively seek out people and say "hey, look at this guy!". But if someone comes along and says "is this real?", then we will say whether or not they are credible when it comes to Ninjutsu credentials. And if it's a system whose only connection to Ninjutsu is an ill-appropriated name, then we'll say that.
Then at that the same things that you guys knock your organization engages in as well and the links are there to prove it.
There are members of the Bujinkan, for instance, who engage in things that the majority of the organisation don't necessarily approve of. But that is mainly due to the Bujinkan's way of leaving things up to the individual instructors themselves. For example, RVDs Home Study Course is not highly thought of, but that in no way invalidates his Bujinkan rank (that and some other things may get some to question it, but that's about it). Infighting in the Bujinkan is not the same as saying that made-up systems are made-up systems with no basis in reality.
If you guys want my opinion on this situation and the proof of your actions are there you should really change everything to say unless if you're Bujinkan and under Masaaki Hatsumi's guidance or an instructor that is currently a member of the Bujinkan you shouldn't even bother joining the site.
Your opinion? Sorry, what exactly do you think that is worth? Perhaps if you could read the statement at the beginning of this post properly you may realise how out you are here.
Oh yeah, check out this article you guys might find something useful since its from Japan and to let you guys know in Japan many instructors claim to be the "last ninja" and in doing are the laughing stocks in Japan. (Does that sound like somebody familiar claiming to be the last real ninja lineage in the world too :uhohh
[URL="http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20071027td.html"]http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20071027td.html[/URL]
Oh, dear. The Jinichi Kawakami claims have been examined to death. Do you really think you're bringing us anything we haven't already seen? And a tabloid-style article doesn't really cut it when it comes to actual research or anything that can be taken as actual information.
