Looking for an Iaito

[Steve]

Quite a number of reasons... for one, the particular requirements for an Iaito are likely not to be known (or understood) by the "local blade-smith" unless they have had extensive exposure to Japanese blades, and their manufacture process... simply looking kinda like it isn't good enough... look to much of the Cold Steel range for that.

Secondly, the person asking is still a beginner in Iaido, and would likely not have much of an idea what to ask for from the blade-smith themselves, not having the experience to understand exactly what is meant when we say that "balance" is important... where is that balance point? How does it feel? What is the overall weight? And, before we get too far in thinking those answers can be given here, different schools, and different instructors will have their own preference... Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu under Sekiguchi Komei Sensei will often tend towards longer, heavier blades... whereas Katori Shinto Ryu under Otake Sensei will go to a shorter, more manageable weapon.. and anything inbetween, depending on the circumstances... hence "ask your instructor" being the first answer, with Paul very accurately stating that the instructor should be considered the ultimate authority in this matter.

Finally, an Iaito is not made of steel... it's often a zinc-aluminuim alloy, designed to not allow the blade to be sharpened, and to not handle impact. It's unlikely that a "local blade-smith" would be used to working with this alloy, or the properties that are present, and their reasons. Steel Iaito do exist (often referred to as Mogito, or "imitation swords"), unsharpened... but these are rare.

When all's said and done, though, the best advice is to go to the guys who know what they're doing... which means Meirin Sangyo, Tozando, Yamato Budogu and similar... absolutely in conjunction with the advice of the instructor in question.

So yeah... not a good idea.

I think most of that is speculation but yeah, if its not steel and isn't intended to hold an edge, a bladesmith probably won't be much help. They typically make actual blades.

That said, there's something of a resurgence in blacksmithing in the states right now and you might be surprised at the skills local craftsman have.

I wouldn't be surprised to find a local expert.

 

[Steve]

Exa

Unless you have a guy like this locally? https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-goldberg-94b78518

The guy is near me and I would hope his traditional forge training as well as being a 4th Dan in a style of Iaido, would help. He teaches Aikido as well. If I didn't now live 40 minutes away I'd consider checking out his Dojo. Ironically it used to be 5 minutes away.

If you watch "Forged in Fire" he is the guy who won the "Katar" episode in Season 1.

exactly. Of course, not all craftsmen are made equal, but I've had great luck.

 

[Hyoho]

I will bow to your expertise in this regard, just want to explain my logic.

Well I don't have personal experience with the Thaitsuki, I was just going on reputation there. Seeing how the price point compares to Albion (more familiar with them) European weapons I figured better than a "budget" cutter. I will also admit I was looking at other sports. I have a $7000.00 bicycle, I would have raced just fine on a $2000 grand one.

Disclaimer for TFW: no experience with their Katanna's just their Filipino style blades.

The TFW blades seem to just have their price point because of their place of Manufacture. I have handled more than a few and the no issues (Filipino blades only). I was actually blown away by the price for not just the quality but attention to detail. As an example, there are Filipino blades designed only for warfare and some that have dual purpose (warfare and light camp work, brush clearing etc). They get the balance, edge geometry, spine thickness, etc spot on for each one. Usually with "budget" companies, in my experience, they just make it look the part, even if the blade doesn't actually have the requisite properties.

But again, your the expert. Just out of a sense of curiosity what is the upper limit of pricing for "budget" cutters?

An Iaito is not "cutter". It's an unsharpened peice of equipment used to practice and reach higher level in Iaido. One can then elevate one's practice in using a shinken (Live blade). It's for artistic practice (M.A.) an Iaito is not made by a smith. Renmei used to specify Yondan+ for shinken but abandoned the idea s not everyone can afford one.

Blades for battojutsu have more niku (meat) if one is to slice makiwara. They are two specific arts although wheels of a cart.

Both of us use sundang/bolo everday. No need for a quality one to cut coconut and 4" bamboo in two. Just a good sharpening stone.

This why as mentioned the OP needs help from his sensei.

 

[Juany118]

An Iaito is not "cutter". It's an unsharpened peice of equipment used to practice and reach higher level in Iaido. One can then elevate one's practice in using a shinken (Live blade) Its for artistic practice (M.A.) an Iaito is not made by a smith. Blades for battojutsu have more niku (meat) if one is to slice makiwara. They are two specific arts although wheels of a cart.

Both of us use sundang/bolo everday. No need for a quality one to cut coconut and bamboo in two. Just a good sharpening stone.

This why as mentioned they guy needs help from his sensei.

I understand that, to an extent. I say, to an extent, because I know one person who studies a number of sword styles, one is Iaido. While the blade he uses is balanced and weighted for it, he uses a sharp. He says that after the decades he has been doing it having a live blade helps to maintain his focus.

Of course the OP needs to speak with his sensei, BUT as I added later you can find custom makers like the one I linked, who have the knowledge and skill to make a blade to the right spec, and who might be less expensive in such a specialty market.

As for the last comment. There is a difference between a bolo that is only intended to cut coconut or bamboo and a bolo you intend to fight with. Weight, balance, edge geometry, strength etc is just as important in a ginunting, kris, talibung etc. that you intend to fight with as it is any other weapon, whether it be a Japanese Katana, German Messer, etc. The trick is to have the knowledge to be able to tell the difference. Hence the "talk to the sensei" bit on the properties the blade should possess.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Okay, look all of the Japanese sword people on here have given really good ideas. I would not go with a "local" expert. They would probably not get it right and have poor balance, bad fittings, bad wrapping, etc. They might be able to make some thing "okay" but in the end you will probably pay more for some thing that is just not right. There are proven good quality sources for iaito like: Meirin Sangyo, Tozando, Yamato Budogu, and All Japan Budogu, etc. Chris Parker, Hyoho, pggsmith, myself and others with actual experience will tell you check with your instructor first as they may have a preference that is important for his school and the system he teaches. Generally they will send you to a quality maker of iaito and you won't waste money buying some thing of inferior quality that you will eventually replace.

 

[Juany118]

Okay, look all of the Japanese sword people on here have given really good ideas. I would not go with a "local" expert. They would probably not get it right and have poor balance, bad fittings, bad wrapping, etc. They might be able to make some thing "okay" but in the end you will probably pay more for some thing that is just not right. There are proven good quality sources for iaito like: Meirin Sangyo, Tozando, Yamato Budogu, and All Japan Budogu, etc. Chris Parker, Hyoho, pggsmith, myself and others with actual experience will tell you check with your instructor first as they may have a preference that is important for his school and the system he teaches. Generally they will send you to a quality maker of iaito and you won't waste money buying some thing of inferior quality that you will eventually replace.

I don't say you are wrong, but perhaps as the exception to the rule, I have a 4th Dan Iaido practitioner who is actually licensed under the Japanese rules (forget the particular lineage) of swordsmithing in my own backyard. So one should certainly heed the advice of those well versed BUT not ignore additional options if you are lucky enough to find them.

 

[jks9199]

I don't say you are wrong, but perhaps as the exception to the rule, I have a 4th Dan Iaido practitioner who is actually licensed under the Japanese rules (forget the particular lineage) of swordsmithing in my own backyard. So one should certainly heed the advice of those well versed BUT not ignore additional options if you are lucky enough to find them.

But I bet you won't find a dozen of them in the USA... Which is the point several people have tried to make, I think.

It seems to me that there are 3 things to look at in getting an iaito: 1; what the instructor recommends, 2; the quality, and 3; what you can afford. They all play off each other; get the iaito that your instructor recommends which balances the last two best for you. There's going to be a minimum quality and price threshold...

 

[Steve]

Okay. Look. No one has suggested going to a local incompetent. Really. You guys are getting very weird about tuis. Of course, vet the guy. Sheesh.

 

[Steve]

Okay, look all of the Japanese sword people on here have given really good ideas. I would not go with a "local" expert. They would probably not get it right and have poor balance, bad fittings, bad wrapping, etc. They might be able to make some thing "okay" but in the end you will probably pay more for some thing that is just not right. There are proven good quality sources for iaito like: Meirin Sangyo, Tozando, Yamato Budogu, and All Japan Budogu, etc. Chris Parker, Hyoho, pggsmith, myself and others with actual experience will tell you check with your instructor first as they may have a preference that is important for his school and the system he teaches. Generally they will send you to a quality maker of iaito and you won't waste money buying some thing of inferior quality that you will eventually replace.

You emphasize "local." What's the problem with looking locally? I'm seriously confused by your reaction. Wouldn't a local "expert", by definition, not be a local expert if they don't understand how to do the thing you're looking for?

And I look for a local vendor whenever possible, for anything. My experience has been that you usually get higher quality goods and services for less money, and you're supporting a small business.

But as I said before. No one is encouraging anyone to hire the local incompetent. The operative word is "expert." Not "local."

 

[Steve]

But I bet you won't find a dozen of them in the USA... Which is the point several people have tried to make, I think.

It seems to me that there are 3 things to look at in getting an iaito: 1; what the instructor recommends, 2; the quality, and 3; what you can afford. They all play off each other; get the iaito that your instructor recommends which balances the last two best for you. There's going to be a minimum quality and price threshold...

So, if there are 12 guys in the country, why discourage the op from giving them business?

The point I've tried to make is, even if there are 2 guys, why not check them out?

There's something weird going in here. You guys are acting like your point is being misunderstood. I think the opposite is true, you seem to think I am recommending the OP go to some incompetent. I'm not. I'm strictly suggesting you look around.

Lighten up guys. No one is challenging the establishment here. You can relax.

 

[Hyoho]

Okay, look all of the Japanese sword people on here have given really good ideas. I would not go with a "local" expert. They would probably not get it right and have poor balance, bad fittings, bad wrapping, etc. They might be able to make some thing "okay" but in the end you will probably pay more for some thing that is just not right. There are proven good quality sources for iaito like: Meirin Sangyo, Tozando, Yamato Budogu, and All Japan Budogu, etc. Chris Parker, Hyoho, pggsmith, myself and others with actual experience will tell you check with your instructor first as they may have a preference that is important for his school and the system he teaches. Generally they will send you to a quality maker of iaito and you won't waste money buying some thing of inferior quality that you will eventually replace.

Buying a blade is like getting fitted for gun stock. The length of the tsuka and length of blade from habaki to tip. The shape of the kensaki is also a major factor. If its a real blade you usually take patterns to the smith.

 

[drop bear]

So wait. How much for a sword that doesn't even work?

That is taking tacticool to a whole new level.

 

[Hyoho]

I don't say you are wrong, but perhaps as the exception to the rule, I have a 4th Dan Iaido practitioner who is actually licensed under the Japanese rules (forget the particular lineage) of swordsmithing in my own backyard. So one should certainly heed the advice of those well versed BUT not ignore additional options if you are lucky enough to find them.

I hold 7th dan both in a Battojutsu Renmei (cutting) and 7th Dan Iaido Renmei. Menkyo Kaiden of one Koryu and Menkyo in another. All in my resident country (Japan). So I guess I have fair idea of what is required.

At my home in the Philippines my guy clears 3000 sq meters of jungle in two days with a decent weapon The last guy ran off as he sliced and diced his neighbor. None of that stuff was special order.

If you talk to a Katana kaji in Japan he will tell you they turned out hundreds of nondescript blades before a battle. Half sharpened so they would "bite in" like a saw. If it didn't kill you same day infection set in to kill you anyway. Stab one guy and muscles contracted so you could not pull it out to use again and moved on to use another one.

We have one particular part of competition where we all use the same blade as it's to test the skill of the user, not the blade.

Years ago before Iaito were invented they used mozoto (unsharpened blades) to learn. Nowdays you buy an Iaito then move up to a real one if you get good enough.

 

[Juany118]

I hold 7th dan both in a Battojutsu Renmei (cutting) and 7th Dan Iaido Renmei. Menkyo Kaiden of one Koryu and Menkyo in another. All in my resident country (Japan). So I guess I have fair idea of what is required.

At my home in the Philippines my guy clears 3000 sq meters of jungle in two days with a decent weapon The last guy ran off as he sliced and diced his neighbor. None of that stuff was special order.

If you talk to a Katana kaji in Japan he will tell you they turned out hundreds of nondescript blades before a battle. Half sharpened so they would "bite in" like a saw. If it didn't kill you same day infection set in to kill you anyway. Stab one guy and muscles contracted so you could not pull it out to use again and moved on to use another one.

We have one particular part of competition where we all use the same blade as it's to test the skill of the user, not the blade.

Years ago before Iaito were invented they used mozoto (unsharpened blades) to learn. Nowdays you buy an Iaito then move up to a real one if you get good enough.

First I was never doubting that you know your stuff, only that a 4th Dan in Iaido who is also a licensed swordsmith in Japan under the Kanefusa lineage likely does as well.

As for the Filipino blades, yes you can chop up someone with a "work" bolo but the variety of blades is pretty wide and there are many blades designed primarily for combat such as the sansibar, talibong, kampilan, kris etc. Then you have the "just work" blades then the multipurpose blades like ginunting, pinute etc.

Maybe I misunderstood your point but it seemed that you were saying that since Filipino blades are primarily for cracking coconuts that one might not understand the importance of the various properties of different blades. The thing is that isn't really true because all Filipino blades don't share that purpose. As a matter of fact I have found that Kali has given me a greater appreciation for these differences due to the variety in blade shapes, balance, edge geometry etc.

If I misinterpreted your statement my bad.

 

[Hyoho]

First I was never doubting that you know your stuff, only that a 4th Dan in Iaido who is also a licensed swordsmith in Japan under the Kanefusa lineage likely does as well.

As for the Filipino blades, yes you can chop up someone with a "work" bolo but the variety of blades is pretty wide and there are many blades designed primarily for combat such as the sansibar, tali-bong, kampilan, kris etc. Then you have the "just work" blades then the multipurpose blades like ginunting, pinute etc.

Maybe I misunderstood your point but it seemed that you were saying that since Filipino blades are primarily for cracking coconuts that one might not understand the importance of the various properties of different blades. The thing is that isn't really true because all Filipino blades don't share that purpose. As a matter of fact I have found that Kali has given me a greater appreciation for these differences due to the variety in blade shapes, balance, edge geometry etc.

If I misinterpreted your statement my bad.

Nobody cracks coconuts here. We harvest them when green. I think Filipino are well aware of the differences. Seems to be regional in shape as well but most of what you mention are historical pieces. What I do appreciate is even kids take blades to school and all the locals wear them all the time. Blades that sometimes need to be used otherwise with a lot of cobras around. I have taken Japanese blades into the jungle to test on 'large bamboo'. Give me sundang/ginunting any day in preference to kodachi.

The usual weapon here now is two guys on a motorbike, one with a .45 for 10.000 Peso/USD200

 

[Juany118]

Nobody cracks coconuts here. We harvest them when green. I think Filipino are well aware of the differences. Seems to be regional in shape as well but most of what you mention are historical pieces. What I do appreciate is even kids take blades to school and all the locals wear them all the time. Blades that sometimes need to be used otherwise with a lot of cobras around. I have taken Japanese blades into the jungle to test on 'large bamboo'. Give me sundang/ginunting any day in preference to kodachi.

The usual weapon here now is two guys on a motorbike, one with a .45 for 10.000 Peso/USD200

Yeah many of the "war blades" are indeed historical, but they are still used in the practice of some styles of FMA, though my understanding is that the Moro insurgents still carry some of them. Also a friend of mine who was a Recon Marine still has his ginunting, his wife calls it "the other woman."

 

[Hyoho]

Yeah many of the "war blades" are indeed historical, but they are still used in the practice of some styles of FMA, though my understanding is that the Moro insurgents still carry some of them. Also a friend of mine who was a Recon Marine still has his ginunting, his wife calls it "the other woman."

Lol my partner uses a ginunting as well as I do.

 

[Juany118]

Lol my partner uses a ginunting as well as I do.

That is actually my preferred blade for Kali. It just wants to move. Especially when doing carenza it feels like it was born to flow. Since it can also be used for light camp work I used that excuse when I bought it. When I first started studying Kali my Wife, only half jokingly, said "one night I expect to wake up with you twirling a blade over my body" lol. And the cutting tests I did? Great googley moogley, for as short as it is, this less leverage, does that slice through things.

 

[pgsmith]

So, if there are 12 guys in the country, why discourage the op from giving them business?

The point I've tried to make is, even if there are 2 guys, why not check them out?

There's something weird going in here. You guys are acting like your point is being misunderstood. I think the opposite is true, you seem to think I am recommending the OP go to some incompetent. I'm not. I'm strictly suggesting you look around.

Lighten up guys. No one is challenging the establishment here. You can relax.

No one is saying anything about challenging any establishment Steve. The problem is that you have pretty much zero knowledge about what you're asking the poor guy that originally started the thread to do. I'll try and explain what is involved so you can understand what it is we're trying to say ...

David Goldberg, the smith that Juany118 mentioned, has a good reputation as a sword smith. He knows his stuff. A person could probably get on his waiting list and have a custom sword made for somewhere around $100/inch (if he's even accepting commissions). Once you finally got your sword (most decent smiths have a year or more wait list), then you have to have someone polish it properly, since they come shaped but not polished from the smith. So you'll need to do a lot of research to find a reputable person to polish and mount the sword for you. Last I checked into that (a couple of years ago), it ran around $4500 for a relatively decent job, including fittings. So, you're arguing that the original poster, who has just started iaido, should actually go and check into having a custom sword made? That is just not a good idea, no matter how you look at it. Once he's been practicing for a while and increased his understanding of what a good sword entails, and what he might like in a sword, then he can start looking at custom swords from local smiths. Until then, he should use the iaito that was made specifically for the art he is practicing.

 

[Steve]

No one is saying anything about challenging any establishment Steve. The problem is that you have pretty much zero knowledge about what you're asking the poor guy that originally started the thread to do. I'll try and explain what is involved so you can understand what it is we're trying to say ...

David Goldberg, the smith that Juany118 mentioned, has a good reputation as a sword smith. He knows his stuff. A person could probably get on his waiting list and have a custom sword made for somewhere around $100/inch (if he's even accepting commissions). Once you finally got your sword (most decent smiths have a year or more wait list), then you have to have someone polish it properly, since they come shaped but not polished from the smith. So you'll need to do a lot of research to find a reputable person to polish and mount the sword for you. Last I checked into that (a couple of years ago), it ran around $4500 for a relatively decent job, including fittings. So, you're arguing that the original poster, who has just started iaido, should actually go and check into having a custom sword made? That is just not a good idea, no matter how you look at it. Once he's been practicing for a while and increased his understanding of what a good sword entails, and what he might like in a sword, then he can start looking at custom swords from local smiths. Until then, he should use the iaito that was made specifically for the art he is practicing.

A problem is that you guys think I'm implying expertise I dont have. I am not. That's a problem. I mean, if we are trying to identify "the problem."

I dont need to be a master carpenter to suggest to someone that they might find one locally. Do I? If I were to say, "hey you might have a local guy who is a master carpenter," am I saying anything unreasonable? Wouldn't it seem odd if several people suggest that this means to find some incompetent? That this secretly means hire some dummy? Ridiculous.

Seriously. You guys are reading WAY more into it than exists. Maybe that's "the problem."

Unlike others, I feel like i am pretty good about staying in my lane. I haven't denounced any of the sources reconnended by others. I havent claimed to be an authority on something I am not. I have also clarified that "local expert" is not local dumbass.

But you guys refuse to listen. Like I said, you can all still be the experts. I'm not suggesting otherwise. But I know some of the players involved here and am pretty sure you're not the only experts in the country.