Long 4

[Sapper6]

Eloquently put!

thank you. i really need to write a book. the martial arts need more common sense inserted during training. what i said is how i train. i've been in three different physical altercations since graduating high school 8 years ago. no serious injury, no jail time. i call it success.

 

[Flying Crane]

train as if you are going to get your *** stomped tomorrow.

Of course, but there is always a reality gap between training and real fighting, no matter how you train.

 

[Sapper6]

Of course, but there is always a reality gap between training and real fighting, no matter how you train.

well unless your training really involves getting the crap beat out of you, what else are you gonna do?

the largest percentile of people walking this planet are right handed. should you be on the receiving end of a right punch, train hard against it. most of the altercations i've witnessed at social interactions begin with a push/shove/lapel grab; so train hard against it.

you can only do what is realistically available. if you indeed want "reality training", this week when you go to the studio, tell your instuctor you had an affair with his significant other. only then will you get "reality training".

good luck in your search.

 

[Doc]

well unless your training really involves getting the crap beat out of you, what else are you gonna do?

the largest percentile of people walking this planet are right handed. should you be on the receiving end of a right punch, train hard against it. most of the altercations i've witnessed at social interactions begin with a push/shove/lapel grab; so train hard against it.

you can only do what is realistically available. if you indeed want "reality training", this week when you go to the studio, tell your instuctor you had an affair with his significant other. only then will you get "reality training".

good luck in your search.

Mr. Parker had an interesting perspective he passed to Bruce Lee. He said, "Training in boxing over-daring. Classical traditional 'karate training' is not daring enough. Kenpo strives to balance between the two."

 

[Sapper6]

Mr. Parker had an interesting perspective he passed to Bruce Lee. He said, "Training in boxing over-daring. Classical traditional 'karate training' is not daring enough. Kenpo strives to balance between the two."

so, just short of over-bearing yet still "living on the edge" training for the unexpected?

i agree with the quote.

most often, people want specifics and "how-to's". i ask that folks use a common sense approach to training.

martial arts training should never seem "theoretical" because at any given moment in your day, should that "theory" become a reality, you best have the tools necessary at your disposal to thwart harm to oneself. when one adapts the mentality "that could never happen here, to me", they are only counting the blessings that have been afforded to them. one day it will happen. it won't take place the way you thought it would.

 

[Doc]

The reason I came to kenpo is because my former instructors, both in tkd and a *mud* (as my master instructor likes to put it) art kept telling me that I knew "enough". Well, exactly what is "enough"? That poor woman who was killed may have thought she knew "enough". I used to view black belt (before I earned one) as "enough". Now it's not "enough" because it's a starting point where I see that I am really just beginning to learn.

The recognition is huge. The young lady I spoke of took her teachers word for it in the face of overwhelming evidence he was wrong. Yes, even women have egos in the arts. She had so much invested in what she had done, she was unwilling to accept what was in front of her face. It was clear she was incompetent under any circumstance that even began to approach reality.

If techniques are ideas, which I'm told Mr. Parker Sr. conceived them as (I know you'll correct me if that's wrong), then I'm just starting to get the idea by practicing them on large bodies (albeit benign ones but they still hit me hard enough at times to make my teeth rattle.)

No you are correct. The commercial technique manuals and the techniques are entirely conceptual, and in many cases unworkable. They were simply meant to be a starting point for discussion among teachers and exploration.
This is why they convey so little information.

Most women are brought up NOT to be fighters but rather nurturers and care-givers. It's an alien concept to hit and be hit for most of us. Takes a great deal of determination and suspension of the ethos with which one was raised to throw and connect with that first strike. But how amazing is it when you realize you can do it.

Unfortunately, as elements in our society become more violent, women must be smarter, and prepare themselves whether it ever comes or not.

Yes, it's scary to be confronted in the street 'all by yourself' -- it's happened twice -- but I'd rather live to tell the tale and escape relatively unscathed because I could avoid the fight or engage long enough to disable and run.

Either one is acceptable. Take the path of least resistance, survive, and be there for your kids. Male or female.

Just don't threaten my kids. No telling what I'd do then.

All bets are off when the lioness' cubs are threatened.

 

[Flying Crane]

well unless your training really involves getting the crap beat out of you, what else are you gonna do?

the largest percentile of people walking this planet are right handed. should you be on the receiving end of a right punch, train hard against it. most of the altercations i've witnessed at social interactions begin with a push/shove/lapel grab; so train hard against it.

you can only do what is realistically available. if you indeed want "reality training", this week when you go to the studio, tell your instuctor you had an affair with his significant other. only then will you get "reality training".

good luck in your search.

I guess my point is that this trend is probably what is leading to a general decline in the quality of many of the martial arts as they are practiced today. Many people who are students and even teachers don't have the real world, practical experience that people did even a generation or two ago. They just don't have the need to actually use it, because of social changes that have happened in our society.

 

[Flying Crane]

No you are correct. The commercial technique manuals and the techniques are entirely conceptual, and in many cases unworkable. They were simply meant to be a starting point for discussion among teachers and exploration.
This is why they convey so little information.

yeah, I like this and this is how I have begun looking at this stuff.

 

[Sapper6]

I guess my point is that this trend is probably what is leading to a general decline in the quality of many of the martial arts as they are practiced today. Many people who are students and even teachers don't have the real world, practical experience that people did even a generation or two ago. They just don't have the need to actually use it, because of social changes that have happened in our society.

i agree with you. students, regardless of age, need teachers that teach things that work; proven methods, not just "works in theory" thinking. the more seasoned the teacher, the better the instruction; greater the chance that student will apply what's necessary when confronted with an undesireable situation.

too bad this isn't the case with the large majority of MA instruction.

we've obviously gotten off the topic of Long 4. my apologies for contributing to that.

 

[Doc]

so, just short of over-bearing yet still "living on the edge" training for the unexpected?

i agree with the quote.

most often, people want specifics and "how-to's". i ask that folks use a common sense approach to training.

Yes, but how does someone who is not a 'street person who has never had a fight utilize 'common sense' in training? They must rely on someone else to give them 'common sense.' Common Sense is a "relative oxymoron." What is common sense for one, may be completely unknown to another. It depends on many factors including age, experience, education, and mental capacity.

martial arts training should never seem "theoretical" because at any given moment in your day, should that "theory" become a reality, you best have the tools necessary at your disposal to thwart harm to oneself.

Unfortumately a grest deal of Kenpo training is theorectical based on a concept of "Assumption of Failure." Look in the manuals. What is 'real' about what's in there? Nothing. An instructor is supposed to bring the reality to the training. Most haven't a clue.

when one adapts the mentality "that could never happen here, to me", they are only counting the blessings that have been afforded to them. one day it will happen. it won't take place the way you thought it would.

Yes and they will instantly switch political philosophies.

 

[Sapper6]

Yes, but how does someone who is not a 'street person who has never had a fight utilize 'common sense' in training? They must rely on someone else to give them 'common sense.' Common Sense is a "relative oxymoron." What is common sense for one, may be completely unknown to another. It depends on many factors including age, experience, education, and mental capacity.

agreed. i often forget this.

Unfortumately a grest deal of Kenpo training is theorectical based on a concept of "Assumption of Failure." Look in the manuals. What is 'real' about what's in there? Nothing. An instructor is supposed to bring the reality to the training. Most haven't a clue.

i was more talking about the mindset of learning and training, rather than the execution of techniques. to say "this may or may not happen to me so why should i train it..." kind of thinking. from what i understand, the Assumption of Failure deals more with the execution of strikes within a technique. of course one should always retain the fact that the first and second strikes in a defense "may not" work so there must exist a follow thru to seal a victory. (my apologies if this is incorrect, as i do not study Kenpo). this theory i believe in. it's the "theoretical" mindset behind motivation of training that worries me. you're right, it is up to the instructor to instill in their students what they are learning will work, only when properly executed.

Yes and they will instantly switch political philosophies.

i don't wish this on anyone, although, experience is the best teacher.

 

[Doc]

agreed. i often forget this.



i was more talking about the mindset of learning and training, rather than the execution of techniques. to say "this may or may not happen to me so why should i train it..." kind of thinking.

agreed.

from what i understand, the Assumption of Failure deals more with the execution of strikes within a technique. of course one should always retain the fact that the first and second strikes in a defense "may not" work so there must exist a follow thru to seal a victory. (my apologies if this is incorrect, as i do not study Kenpo). this theory i believe in.

Well, maybe you do sir, but then again maybe you don't. When the entire philosophy is based on Assumption of Failure, than it is a 'failed' philosophy. The emphasis is placed on 'moving on' with quick expedition strikes in 'hopes' that they may be successful. The emphasis here is on speed first, effectiveness is somewhere down the line hopefully initiated by speed.

Of course this is a bad idea but sells really well. It is very impressive to see a guy smack another guy standing still with multiple fast strikes with no regard for body mechanics. Being fast is really easy if you have to move nothing but an arm. Besides if your first move is a block, and it fails, the rest may be a moot point.

it's the "theoretical" mindset behind motivation of training that worries me. you're right, it is up to the instructor to instill in their students what they are learning will work, only when properly executed.

Yes, and most have no idea what they're doing relative to a street assault, and the answer isn't in so-called NHB sport competition.

i don't wish this on anyone, although, experience is the best teacher.

 

[teej]

I think we are overlooking individuals mind sets, or their will to survive. I can teach and condition anyone teaching them all the drills, forms, techniques, but if that person does not develope the will to use it when needed, all their training will not make a difference.

Example, I have a very good friend. He is insistant that he does not feel that he could ever take a life regardless of the circumstances. That is his choice or belief. I hope he is never put in any situation where he has to find out. [me either for that matter, but my mind set is that I will do whatever I have to do to protect my family or myself]

Another example. I had a women student years ago. She was a waitress in a lounge. She trained for a while, but in class she was constantly saying how she would never be able to kick someone in the groin or poke someone in their eyes. She quit after a short while. A year later she stopped in to thank me. A man drunk man in the parking lot one night wouldn't let her get to her car and was getting rough. She dropped him with a well placed kick to his groin and she escaped. She didn't need to know all the techniques, didn't have to be able to perform form 4. She did what she needed at that time and got away.

Turns out that when she needed it, she had the will to survive and do what needed to be done to save herself. Anyone with this will can fight their way out of a wet paper bag. No training required, just the correct mind set or will to survive.

So, how do you go bout training your students to develope this mindset? {without beating them into the ground. I see too many students broken instead of developed using this method of sparring them hard before they are ready. Get a student that flinches bad and you will find somewhere they were either trained too rough before they were ready or they were abused somewhere} So, how do you mentally train or develope students?

Teej

 

[Doc]

I think we are overlooking individuals mind sets, or their will to survive. I can teach and condition anyone teaching them all the drills, forms, techniques, but if that person does not develope the will to use it when needed, all their training will not make a difference.

Example, I have a very good friend. He is insistant that he does not feel that he could ever take a life regardless of the circumstances. That is his choice or belief. I hope he is never put in any situation where he has to find out. [me either for that matter, but my mind set is that I will do whatever I have to do to protect my family or myself]

Another example. I had a women student years ago. She was a waitress in a lounge. She trained for a while, but in class she was constantly saying how she would never be able to kick someone in the groin or poke someone in their eyes. She quit after a short while. A year later she stopped in to thank me. A man drunk man in the parking lot one night wouldn't let her get to her car and was getting rough. She dropped him with a well placed kick to his groin and she escaped. She didn't need to know all the techniques, didn't have to be able to perform form 4. She did what she needed at that time and got away.

Turns out that when she needed it, she had the will to survive and do what needed to be done to save herself. Anyone with this will can fight their way out of a wet paper bag. No training required, just the correct mind set or will to survive.

So, how do you go bout training your students to develope this mindset? {without beating them into the ground. I see too many students broken instead of developed using this method of sparring them hard before they are ready. Get a student that flinches bad and you will find somewhere they were either trained too rough before they were ready or they were abused somewhere} So, how do you mentally train or develope students?

Teej

One of the luxuries I have is hand picking all full time members of the student body, so we have a sense of who they are from the background check. Secondly, at the appropriate times during the course of study, all students are subjected to various levels of stress, mentally, emotionally, and physically. All students are required to perform under these conditions to pass a course. This is a fairly reliable indicator of performance potential in reality. The student body, not coincidentally, has its share of federal agents/deputies, police officers, and sheriff's deputies, to compliment the firemen, paramedics, lawyers, computer geeks, well known actors, advanced degree college students, and a few very special high school seniors in our mentor program.

Although we have students in the US and Europe, we are not interested in numbers. Quality is the benchmark of our program, and for the most part, it is really an Instructors Program. This insures the knowledge and training methodology will be preserved within the collective of the student body irrespective of any one individual. I have 30 year students of mine on the floor at least once a week, and I know Kevin Mills in the U.K. maintains the same high standards in our European groups.

"Excellence through Integrity, Integrity through excellence. No exceptions! If you don't "pack the gear," you must find another school.