Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
I like how the book talks about philosophy and how it applies to the martial arts and especially how it separates martial arts from religion. All too often people think of martial arts as a religion or at least that it has something to do with religion. Morgan makes the distinction between religion and the martial arts. For a more complete review Living the Martial Way Quotes by Forrest E. Morgan
And also this Interview: Forrest Morgan, Author “Living the Martial Way” (Part 1)
Well sure a religion might borrow a martial art or arts but that doesn't mean that just because you train in a martial art or arts that you're following any specific religion.However religion and martial arts are not separated for many people. It doesn't mean that martial arts are a religion but for many their religion is such an integral part of their lives that it touches everything they do and say. The idea that religion is in a separate box brought out for Sundays is a very Western idea, in the East there is much less separation which I think confuses many Westerners. The book is only one man's ideas and thoughts, it doesn't make it the truth.
Well sure a religion might borrow a martial art or arts but that doesn't mean that just because you train in a martial art or arts that you're following any specific religion.
It's nothing to do with a religion 'borrowing' a martial art at all. Many people believe that their belief is part of everything they do and every action they perform ( in life not just martial arts) is an act of worship. Hindus for example believe the correct action in accordance with dharma is also understood as service to humanity and to God, this will also inform their martial arts practice. Eastern beliefs such as Shinto and Buddhism are much more a way of life than the Western Christianity, so involves everything that believers do including martial arts so there is no separation of their every day actions and their beliefs.
Well what Im saying is this, lets say there's a shintoist who trains in a martial art and as you put it, they believe that everything they do including their training in a martial art they are doing as part of their religion of Shintoism. Now lets say I train in a martial art and it can even be the same martial art that this particular shintoist trains in, that does not make me a shintoist too and it does not mean that by training in the martial art that I am engaging in a shintoist practice even if this other practitioner is using it as such.
especially how it separates martial arts from religion. All too often people think of martial arts as a religion or at least that it has something to do with religion. Morgan makes the distinction between religion and the martial arts. For a more complete review
I like how the book talks about philosophy and how it applies to the martial arts and especially how it separates martial arts from religion. All too often people think of martial arts as a religion or at least that it has something to do with religion. Morgan makes the distinction between religion and the martial arts.
For a more complete review Living the Martial Way Quotes by Forrest E. Morgan
And also this Interview: Forrest Morgan, Author “Living the Martial Way” (Part 1)
Well sure a religion might borrow a martial art or arts but that doesn't mean that just because you train in a martial art or arts that you're following any specific religion.
Well what Im saying is this, lets say there's a shintoist who trains in a martial art and as you put it, they believe that everything they do including their training in a martial art they are doing as part of their religion of Shintoism.
Now lets say I train in a martial art and it can even be the same martial art that this particular shintoist trains in, that does not make me a shintoist too and it does not mean that by training in the martial art that I am engaging in a shintoist practice even if this other practitioner is using it as such.
Nope, still not got it.
You stated that it separates arts from religion as if martial arts is a religion, it isn't, no one thinks it is,
what they do however is bring their beliefs into everything they do including martial arts, as XS says they don't compartmentalise.
Then you say that people think of martial arts as a religion....no one does as far as I've seen. You also say they think of it as something to do with religion, again no.
Then you say that Morgan makes the distinction between religion and martial arts only no one really believes that martial arts of any type is a religion.
What you are don't get is that many people's beliefs and their everyday actions are bound together, they don't do martial arts as a religious practice at all, but will perform their martial arts actions in a way that confirms their beliefs as they will do in everything from making a meal, to washing their clothes, to doing their everyday jobs.
"They"? People? Xue was speaking specifically (and generally, which is a cool trick when you can do it) about Asian cultures there… as a juxtaposition to Western ideals and focus'. For Westerners, it's far more common to compartmentalise… which means that here, I am a religious person, there, I am a husband/father/son/daughter/wife/mother, there I am a worker, there I am a student, there I am a martial artist, and so on. Now, when there is a high value set of priorities (commonly an uncompromising set at that) that over-rules all others, that's when you get people (Westerners) "bring(ing) their beliefs into everything they do"… and we tend to call them extremists when it gets too carried away… balance is important...
I took it from the book.I'm not going to comment much on your take on the book, but will ask if the idea that "all too often people think of martial arts as a religion or at least that it has something to do with religion" was something that you thought, or you took from the book (and Morgan's take on things).
I like how Morgan differentiates between martial arts and religion and the overall philosophy he presents such as to live every day as if its your last. I also like his description of shugyo and its a practice I sometimes take on. There is many other stuff I like about the book but that's what I can think of offhand. To mention all the other stuff I would have to reread the book.Okay… when I asked for a more detailed review, I meant from you, not a link to others. I was curious as to what was important in the book to you, partially as insight into the book, and partially as insight into your thought process and value system (just something I do, really…). That said, the links were interesting… going beyond them, personally, I'm not sure I'd like the book that much… Morgan strikes me as someone (in the book, at least…) who is a bit too enamoured with an overly romanticised view of martial arts, warriorship, and the history found therein. I tend to prefer to listen to people who have a wider understanding.
So if somebody were to train in American boxing would they necessarily be engaged in Christian practices somehow? Since American boxing originated in the USA and Christianity is the main religion in the USA.If the practice is based in (or is specifically related to) Shinto practices, then yes, you are engaging in a Shinto practice… even if you're largely unaware of it. And, if you're in anyway experienced or exposed to classical Japanese arts, there's a good chance you've engaged in Shinto practice in some way already…
Now, that's not strictly true at all, really. Shaolin Monks are going to be the go-to for many people (although there are both religious and secular monks, with the secular usually just there for the martial arts side of things, and the religious ones there for both)… however, I personally would look to systems such as Shorinji Kenpo, developed by Doshin So as a way of spreading his particular take on Buddhism, to the point that all practice is considered a religious act, and their form of rehearsed "fights" being described as a form of prayer, or offering in a very religious sense… then we have many classical systems, such as Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu (who go so far as to have Shinto in their name… it translates (loosely, but accurately) as "The Truly and Correctly Transmitted From Heaven System of Shinto Martial Arts of the Katori Shrine"). Shinto Ryu (it's proper shortened name… it happens to be the Shinto Ryu associated with the Katori Shrine, as opposed to the Kashima Shinto Ryu, or other Shinto systems) is filled with religious (Shinto) aspects… some of the Iai, for example, are actually used in Shinto exorcisms and spell castings. Musashi Miyamoto once wrote "Pay respect to Buddha and the Gods, but do not rely on them" with regard to religion in martial arts… however his devotion to Buddhism late in his life means that it's said that you cannot truly and fully understand his writings (such as the Gorin no Sho) without a deep knowledge of the Buddhist Sutras (one reason some were written in hiragana, rather than kanji).
In Japan, Embu (martial demonstrations) are often done at shrines and temples… not because they're very pretty places, but because it's quite literally a form of offering to the deities/spirits etc who inhabit such places. Weapons are left as votive offerings (many examples of over-sized weapons, initially thought to have been actually used, were in reality simply offerings to shrines and such… weapons of that stature would be impractical, at the least, to actually wield). For this reason, embu are done in "your Sunday best"… and often start (and end) with religious ceremonies. The following clip shows incredibly well the level that religious ceremonies and aspect are integrated into such an event, showing the opening prayer/purification ceremony (note the double clap, a very Shinto thing to do, and something found in many classical Japanese arts). The gent in white with the sword at the beginning and end is not performing Iaido… it's a ceremonial/religious offering centred in Shinto practice. And, of course, the rest of the embu is just great to watch...
Then we get systems such as SandanChris' here… his very Christian Kempo fellowship (seems to be something that crops up in the US, Christian Martial Arts…) is highly based in his religious understanding and ideals….
Now, none of these make the art itself a religion (well… the Bujinkan was nearly made into a religion, largely for tax purposes, a few years back…), but the arts are a religious expression in many cases… which does make that martial art at least part of a religion and it's approach to interacting with it's followers. It's the same way a Church or Synagogue isn't a religion… nor are the rituals found, followed, and engaged in there… but they are part of the expression of the religion itself.
"They"? People? Xue was speaking specifically (and generally, which is a cool trick when you can do it) about Asian cultures there… as a juxtaposition to Western ideals and focus'. For Westerners, it's far more common to compartmentalise… which means that here, I am a religious person, there, I am a husband/father/son/daughter/wife/mother, there I am a worker, there I am a student, there I am a martial artist, and so on. Now, when there is a high value set of priorities (commonly an uncompromising set at that) that over-rules all others, that's when you get people (Westerners) "bring(ing) their beliefs into everything they do"… and we tend to call them extremists when it gets too carried away… balance is important...
With PhotonGuy's seeming inability to separate his own thoughts from those that he's read/seen/heard expressed by others, I'm not so sure he wasn't more quoting Morgan there… I'm waiting to hear on that…
See above… some specifically are…
True for some, not for all…
Personally, I find it rather ironic that Morgan is apparently taking such pains to separate them… while at the same time, the entire tome reads like a sermon, a religious gospel on "real martial arts"… an almost evangelical dictate on what people have to do to live up to his ideal of what a "warrior" is, and how to be one… honestly, in the book he largely appears to make warriorship and martial arts into his personal religion… and is wanting to sway others to his cause. But you know what they say, there is no zealot like a convert… which Morgan certainly was…
So if somebody were to train in American boxing would they necessarily be engaged in Christian practices somehow? Since American boxing originated in the USA and Christianity is the main religion in the USA.
Lets say I throw a sidekick, by doing so, by making such a move with my body and foot am I somehow paying tribute to a Shinto god or engaging in some kind of Shinto practice?
Morgan is aware that people sometimes mix religion with the martial arts and he mentions that in his book and he's against that. According to Morgan, religion and martial arts should be kept separate. Also Morgan claims that martial arts originated not as religious practices but as methods of warfare. Even those martial arts that originated in temples he says originated for warfare and defense since temples were also political centers and that many of the political functions went on in the temples including the formation and training of the military. Those are Morgan's claims not mine
I took it from the book.
I like how Morgan differentiates between martial arts and religion
and the overall philosophy he presents such as to live every day as if its your last.
I also like his description of shugyo and its a practice I sometimes take on.
There is many other stuff I like about the book but that's what I can think of offhand. To mention all the other stuff I would have to reread the book.
So if somebody were to train in American boxing would they necessarily be engaged in Christian practices somehow? Since American boxing originated in the USA and Christianity is the main religion in the USA.
Lets say I throw a sidekick, by doing so, by making such a move with my body and foot am I somehow paying tribute to a Shinto god or engaging in some kind of Shinto practice?
Morgan is aware that people sometimes mix religion with the martial arts and he mentions that in his book and he's against that.
According to Morgan, religion and martial arts should be kept separate.
Also Morgan claims that martial arts originated not as religious practices but as methods of warfare.
Even those martial arts that originated in temples he says originated for warfare and defense since temples were also political centers and that many of the political functions went on in the temples including the formation and training of the military. Those are Morgan's claims not mine.
Well sure a religion might borrow a martial art or arts but that doesn't mean that just because you train in a martial art or arts that you're following any specific religion.
What I do is inexorably interwoven in Buddhist precepts