Living The Martial Way

[PhotonGuy]

Chris I would have been much more specific but frankly that's a waste of time because the OP can't or won't take what others say as being anywhere near the truth if it contradicts what he says hence my generalistions. I'm Jewish, everything I do in my everyday is what some might call 'religious' including martial arts, it's about how one acts and behaves all the time. Everyday life for a Jew is hardly the stuff of extremists. When I say no one believes martial arts are a religion I mean that no-one worships martial arts, no one prays to karate or Judo, says prayers of thanks to TKD or prays that JKD send money. Martial arts may be a religious act or an expression of religion but they aren't worshipped or deified in themselves which is how I would define a religion.

So everything you do including martial arts you claim to apply your religion to it somehow. I never said other otherwise. I don't know enough about Judaism to know how you would apply it to martial arts or if you're training in the martial arts for religious reasons along with everything else you do but if that's what you say than I am not going to argue against that.

 

[Tez3]

Religion isn't 'applied' to martial arts and you don't train martial arts for religious purposes. The way you live your whole life, everything you do should be done in such a way that it reflects your beliefs. it's not about compartmenting everything you do, it's about behaving the say way everything you go and in everything you do, many religions have this. In Hinduism for example everything you do should be as an act of worship.

 

[Hyoho]

Religions/philosophies gives a human beings a set of core values. The martial way teaches us to defend/attack and kill people. If we do not have some of those core values even if we did not learn them from religion what we do just becomes barbaric.

What differs is the fact that a lot of Asia works on a 'shame society' basis. You should fully responsible for your own actions and cannot use religion as a crutch.

If we pray it's to to the spirit of our founders/ancestors. I see little point in trying to mix Western/North African ideas with what is essentially Asian

 

[Hyoho]

Eastern beliefs such as Shinto and Buddhism are much more a way of life than the Western Christianity, so involves everything that believers do including martial arts so there is no separation of their every day actions and their beliefs.

I would strongly disagree with having been ordained in Buddhist sect and practicing Budo for most of my life. Your average Japanese only comes in contact concerning coming of age, marriage and death. However for those that actually practice to a high degree there is little written that does not draw from confucian/buddhist precepts. Doesn't the concept of Christianity come from North Africa?

 

[Tez3]

You should fully responsible for your own actions and cannot use religion as a crutch.

This is how human behaviour is looked upon in Judaism, it's down to you. There is the Law, whether you follow it is up to you as free will is given, how you behave is up to you. There is little 'worship' in Judaism, it's about how you behave so that has implications in everything you do. In martial arts it could be something like sharing a drink with someone who forgot to bring one, helping a beginner with something, being respectful towards people and the fixtures and fittings in the dojo, replacing the toilet the roll so the person after you has some , very small simple things that inform our lives so that we act in a way that benefits others rather than spiteful things which detract from you as a person.

 

[Tez3]

I would strongly disagree with having been ordained in Buddhist sect and practicing Budo for most of my life. Your average Japanese only comes in contact concerning coming of age, marriage and death. However for those that actually practice to a high degree there is little written that does not draw from confucian/buddhist precepts. Doesn't the concept of Christianity come from North Africa?

Japanese as you say but I have Nepalese, Thai and Indian friends for whom Buddhism is very much a way of life. I know little about Christianity so am not the one to comment of it's origins but I will say that for most it is very much a Sunday only thing and doesn't permeate into everyday life the way Eastern religions do.

 

[Hyoho]

In general the Japanese are very pragmatic stating god is everywhere. They observe shito rights for children, get married in a chapel. Then as they age and wish to make peace they observe Buddhism.

Buddhism in Japan has many educational establishments as this was originally the foundation for education but mainly is the "Dying trade". This is why people like the samurai identified with it by serving one's master and also leaving this world when he did.

To practice budo and to also read it you are bound by Kanji that have onyomi and kunyomi (Confucian and Buddhist meanings).

Few great founders have left written teachings to coincide with practice in Japan. Practicing the physical side of things only take you up to a certain point. I you have that philosophy it's best to try and use it to reach and understanding of what you do.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

I work hard everyday, to ensure that religion does not infiltrate my training and especially with my daily life.

With that said, I do believe some systems where created out of religious views. But the martial arts as a religion itself, no sir I do not think that it is. IMO

 

[Tez3]

I work hard everyday, to ensure that religion does not infiltrate my training and especially with my daily life.

With that said, I do believe some systems where created out of religious views. But the martial arts as a religion itself, no sir I do not think that it is. IMO

Well there's religion and there's faiths, if you have neither there's no reason for them to touch you at all. For others their faith informs everything they do from eating, washing, working, hobbies etc. However Western beliefs ( I don't include Islam or Judaism as western beliefs btw) have a very different outlook, they seem to shout more, pray louder and want to inflict their beliefs on others far more, it's much more in your face than many other religions. for some of us, out faith is about doing small kindnesses when we can, being charitable, being good people, it's not about worship.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Nope, still not got it.



You stated that it separates arts from religion as if martial arts is a religion, it isn't, no one thinks it is, what they do however is bring their beliefs into everything they do including martial arts, as XS says they don't compartmentalise. Then you say that people think of martial arts as a religion....no one does as far as I've seen. You also say they think of it as something to do with religion, again no. Then you say that Morgan makes the distinction between religion and martial arts only no one really believes that martial arts of any type is a religion.
What you are don't get is that many people's beliefs and their everyday actions are bound together, they don't do martial arts as a religious practice at all, but will perform their martial arts actions in a way that confirms their beliefs as they will do in everything from making a meal, to washing their clothes, to doing their everyday jobs.

Actually, in the US, there are Christains who won't do Easternn arts, because they believe them to be inherently religious (and contrary to Christian doctrine). This is the viewpoint addressed in the book, and what Photonguy is referring to, I think.

Because of this, there are "Christian Karate" schools around here.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I tried explaining this to PG before and the bit you quoted from him is what he replied. It's not just martial arts some beliefs are interwoven with, it's all aspects of life but he thinks religions 'borrow' martial arts.

Some actually do (see my previous post).

 

[Tez3]

Some actually do (see my previous post).

They don't turn martial arts into a religion though and worship it which is what I mean.

 

[Buka]

I like the term "The Martial Way". It probably means different things to all of us. And I imagine anyone who runs a dojo does so in their own particular way, teaching values they learned, or values they deem important to their students and life in general. That can be kind of scary, I suppose, let's hope they get it right and it comes from the heart.

If it's a fighting dojo, there better be a martial way and martial values taught.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

They don't turn martial arts into a religion though and worship it which is what I mean.

No, they don't. But some believe it is religious, that things like the bowing are prayerful rituals that violate Christian religious practices. It's odd, but it happens.

Oh, and I even met one guy (trained with him for a while before he left the school) who actually did see it as a religion. I can't even really explain it, because when he talked about it, he made absolutely no sense. I believe he was actually delusional.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Well there's religion and there's faiths, if you have neither there's no reason for them to touch you at all. For others their faith informs everything they do from eating, washing, working, hobbies etc. However Western beliefs ( I don't include Islam or Judaism as western beliefs btw) have a very different outlook, they seem to shout more, pray louder and want to inflict their beliefs on others far more, it's much more in your face than many other religions. for some of us, out faith is about doing small kindnesses when we can, being charitable, being good people, it's not about worship.

Great, to me they are ALL negative aspects of life and have no real base in reality. But Islam, Judaism and christianity, I classify as the same religions just different sects. All those things you mentioned can and has been done without religion. Really though, I don't care what you believe in. The only thing I am against is funding any theocratic based government.
But I do not want to get into a theological debate and is why I do not have a facebook.
If you find value in your belief, great.
Me I prefer to believe in myself above the gods.

 

[Tez3]

Great, to me they are ALL negative aspects of life and have no real base in reality. But Islam, Judaism and christianity, I classify as the same religions just different sects. All those things you mentioned can and has been done without religion. Really though, I don't care what you believe in. The only thing I am against is funding any theocratic based government.
But I do not want to get into a theological debate and is why I do not have a facebook.
If you find value in your belief, great.
Me I prefer to believe in myself above the gods.

I'm sorry but Christianity and Judaism are not at all the same however much people like to think they are. it's a common misconception that many think they know what Judaism is but on closer inspection they find it very different from what they thought so before you dismiss and patronise perhaps you should actually find out. There is actually so little in common with Christianity that you are acutally insulting us to say we are just different sects. perhaps you'd like to inform yourself a little more before being so dismissive and nasty about it.

 

[Hyoho]

Perhap faith is a better description than religion.Buddhism is more of a philosophy religion anyway. Although if your original teacher in that particular dojo has passed on, one puts ones hand together in respect to his spirit before and after practice. There are common values in faith and MA. One could completely divorce ones faith from it but I dont think buddhist monks would be too happy about that.

My students are deshi (disciples). Living in the help wash, cook, clean, and more most of the day train from first light until dusk. I know it sounds a bit like the old Kung Fu series but thats the way we do it. Gashuku (live in practice and study) in a monk like manner is common in Japan.

Nothing we do is "In the name of God'. Its based on self discipline to try and make us better people.

What my founder said about one of the schools I teach is in my sig. 'If you cant learn the heart first dont even pick up a sword.'

After a lifetime of study. With all the people I have met over the years from students to headmasters I have met good and bad. Many years ago I perhaps thought that MA was some magical method of self improvement and attainment . What I have found out in reality is that the have to put the heart in there yourself and than some people in arts just dont have it and never will.

I just dont see any relationship between Christianity and Budo. Its about taking full responsibility for your own actions, not praying for forgiveness. There is no heaven and hell in M.A.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

I'm sorry but Christianity and Judaism are not at all the same however much people like to think they are. it's a common misconception that many think they know what Judaism is but on closer inspection they find it very different from what they thought so before you dismiss and patronise perhaps you should actually find out. There is actually so little in common with Christianity that you are acutally insulting us to say we are just different sects. perhaps you'd like to inform yourself a little more before being so dismissive and nasty about it.

Zero tolerance...so it will do no good. Have a great day.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Zero tolerance...so it will do no good. Have a great day.

Zero tolerance of what, precisely? So far, Tez has only put forth some explanations of her views, and an attempt to distinguish Judaism from Christianity (which I see as divergences from the same root, whatever that means).

If you have no tolerance for others mentioning their religion, then it would be best not to step into a discussion where they are in play. If you have no tolerance for people defending their views, perhaps you could express your own with some moderation.

I'm entirely areligious, so I'm not bothered by your attitude on religion. Not my fight. But you stepped into a discussion in a fairly un-civil manner.

 

[Hyoho]

No, they don't. But some believe it is religious, that things like the bowing are prayerful rituals that violate Christian religious practices. It's odd, but it happens.

Oh, and I even met one guy (trained with him for a while before he left the school) who actually did see it as a religion. I can't even really explain it, because when he talked about it, he made absolutely no sense. I believe he was actually delusional.

I vaguely remember a situation like that some years ago. I guess some people need to study Japanese customs. Bowing in Japan is like shaking hands. You will never be able to bow as deeply as an old lady who in her frailty venerates her fellow man to help her in everything.