Lineage, what's that???

[Amatsu Tatara]

This is my 40th year in the martial arts. Although Kenpo is the main thread,
I began my Tai Chi journey about the same year, then there is Japanese sword and praying mantis. Flash to the present I have just closed my last class for the last time and am now teaching only privately. So I'm beginning to look back at the years. Here is my point. Although I had a few instructor that didn't speak english, here from China or Japan. Not one of my Sensei had sutdied under a master or attended internationals or even rubbed shoulders with those that rubbed shoulders with masters.
The interesting thing is that my sensei that came from Japan hadn't studied with a master but their style had been in the family for generations. it seems to me that only in the United States is it that big a deal to have studied under a Parker or Tracy or lee.

Kit

 

[stoneheart]

I study Okinawan karate and lineage is very important here. It's not just in the United States, either. One's lineage is supposed to be a form of quality control. If you're the student of a noted sensei with high standards like Shinjo from Uechi-Ryu or Yagi from Goju-Ryu, everyone in Okinawan karate circles knows your technique will be strong and spirited and you should be able to display the hallmarks of your line, whatever that may be. Some sensei will not even accept you as a student until you come recommended from someone else in their line or from a respected colleague.

Lineage can indeed be just bragging rights, particularly in the West, but it's a mistake to discount it entirely.

 

[MarkBarlow]

When dealing with Japanese instructors, I've never had one ask me my rank or who long I've trained. The one question they all asked was, "Who is your sensei?"

 

[exile]

When dealing with Japanese instructors, I've never had one ask me my rank or who long I've trained. The one question they all asked was, "Who is your sensei?"

Exact same story for me with TKD instructors.

 

[Sapper6]

The interesting thing is that my sensei that came from Japan hadn't studied with a master but their style had been in the family for generations. it seems to me that only in the United States is it that big a deal to have studied under a Parker or Tracy or lee.

Agreed. That's because we Americans have this retarded belief that if it isn't well known, our instructors not world-renowned, then it just isn't good enough; which is also why we put so much belief in associations. It makes us feel more important; it gives us meaning. Anymore, it's not what you study, it's who you study.

My school is not well known, my instuctors not well known, and I belong to no organizations/associations. I'm such a crappy martial artist.:shrug:

 

[stone_dragone]

My school is not well known, my instuctors not well known, and I belong to no organizations/associations. I'm such a crappy martial artist.:shrug:

I, too, fit that mold...although I am a member of an association or two, they are of dubious reputation to those outside of them and therefore better in many eyes to not be part of any in the first place.

Sapper, you and I are what Dr Jerry Beasley calls "Independents." I have seen quality come from lineage, but I have seen free-thinking quality come from independents...so lets keep up the "Crappy" work!!

 

[bushidomartialarts]

When dealing with Japanese instructors, I've never had one ask me my rank or who long I've trained. The one question they all asked was, "Who is your sensei?"

Seconded. In Japan even moreso than with Japanese instructors over here.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

To the OP's point, of course in Japan it's no big deal to have trained under Parker or Tracy or Lee. That's like going to China and bragging that our White House is almost 200 years old.

But drop a name like Funikoshi or Ueshiba in Japan, now you're getting someplace.

 

[terryl965]

When dealing with Japanese instructors, I've never had one ask me my rank or who long I've trained. The one question they all asked was, "Who is your sensei?"

This is the truth everytime.

 

[searcher]

Not one of my Sensei had sutdied under a master or attended internationals or even rubbed shoulders with those that rubbed shoulders with masters.
The interesting thing is that my sensei that came from Japan hadn't studied with a master but their style had been in the family for generations.

Kit

You don't happen to be a Ryuei-ryu karate-ka are you? This sounds very much like the Ryuei-ryu to me.

 

[Sensei Payne]

Lineage is ment to be for the student to know where there art has come from...and what sacrifices have been made so that you the student can train the way you do now...

In Okinawa there were soliders that would walk into a dojo ask who the instructors were and when the kindly old instructors would reveal themselves, they would get a bullet in them...

So Lineage is more than bragging rights...its about how your art came to be

karate No Michi

 

[qi-tah]

Lineage certainly seems to be very important in the Chinese arts i've been involved with... it's a trail of evoloution as well as a network. I've not found it to be a case of "My master is better then yours cause he trained under X or can trace his lineage back to Y" kind of thing.

On another tack, my teacher's master died last year and i often wonder who he learns from or trains with now (apart from us gumbys i mean). I realise that he'd know heaps of ppl back in China who he's probably been working with for years now anyway, i just wonder who they are. They don't get a mention in his lineage, but they'd be pretty important contributors to his development just the same, hey?

 

[chinto01]

Lineage is ment to be for the student to know where there art has come from...and what sacrifices have been made so that you the student can train the way you do now...

In Okinawa there were soliders that would walk into a dojo ask who the instructors were and when the kindly old instructors would reveal themselves, they would get a bullet in them...

So Lineage is more than bragging rights...its about how your art came to be

karate No Michi

Your statement about the soliders putting bullets in the Okinawan instructors interests me. Can you elaborate some more please.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[Langenschwert]

There are arguments in the HES world every so often. Fortunately (or unfortunately), lineage becomes a non-issue in a reconstructed MA for most of us. As long as your interpretations of the manuals work in combat, you're good to go. It's more of a "put your money where your mouth is" kind of thing. Studying with recognized practicioners certainly has cache, but there are great practicioners out there with no reputation outside of very small circles.

There are some organizations that claim to be part of living HES lineages, but only with regards to the linkage between the rapier and classical fencing. The skills of the longsword masters (for example) died out centuries ago, so our lineage is the literature they left behind, and that's OK with me.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Sensei Payne]

Your statement about the soldiers putting bullets in the Okinawan instructors interests me. Can you elaborate some more please.

In the spirit of Bushido!

Rob

When Okinawa was taken over by Japan, they were demilitarized and to practice the martial arts was considered militaristic and it would also create some what of a uproar among young men and at least in the Japanese's eyes, dojos and instructors where considered a threat, and at that point the martial arts had to go underground, what is where we get our traditional weapons such as the tonfa (tool to grind rice), the kama (tool to cut wheat), and the chizikunbo(sp?) (which were the floating devices on the fishing nets)


I hope that was more than enough of information to fill you in on the demilitarized Okinawan peoples

Karate No Michi

 

[kidswarrior]

I, too, fit that mold...although I am a member of an association or two, they are of dubious reputation to those outside of them and therefore better in many eyes to not be part of any in the first place.

Sapper, you and I are what Dr Jerry Beasley calls "Independents." I have seen quality come from lineage, but I have seen free-thinking quality come from independents...so lets keep up the "Crappy" work!!

Ditto. :asian: