You really have a way of messing with peoples minds, you know.
Ohhhhhh, you Don't know the Half of it. I'm not Bad.......
Ok maybe I am a little bad.
lori
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Licentiousness breeds extremism
- Thread starter Ken Morgan
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Ohhhhhh, you Don't know the Half of it. I'm not Bad.......
Ok maybe I am a little bad.
lori
I have spent an interesting hour or so reading through the comments and responses to the article in the OP. Fascinating to see a thread emerging, that, amidst the common sense is also worrying for the tranquility of the future.
This is one post that, I am almost ashamed to say (because of it's implicit right-wing militarism), could have been written by me:
Very soon the population of Europe will finally be exhausted by the demands of this the most agressive minority group and hit back with the same extreme force moslems threaten us with."
I agree. I think that, in the not-too-distant future, non-Muslims in Europe will run out of patience and tolerance towards the minority of aggressively anti-western, potentially violent Islamist fanatics in their midst, and will also have despaired at the unwillingness or inability of their governments, police and intelligence services to neutralize the threat that they pose. And then - possibly egged on by right-wing nationalist movements such as the BNP - they will turn their anger on the Muslim community as a whole, and the ensuing civil unrest will make the race-riots of the early 80s look like a picnic.
It is unfortunate that a lot of 'moderate' Muslims will get caught in the middle. But this is what happens when they allow the fanatics to live in their midst and do nothing (or very little) to isolate and reject them. It is also what happens when you have governments that have ignored the concerns of its citizens and compromised their security, firstly by their blind pursuit of some naive utopian ideal of multiculturalism, and secondly by their continued and servile acquiescence to the demands of ethno-religious pressure groups who have become skilled at portraying themslves as the victims of racism, bigotry and religious intolerance, rather than the perpetrators of the same.
History is full of lessons about what happens when two mutually incompatible and naturally antagonistic cultures are forced to live cheek-by-jowl with each other. Why don't our politicians - some of whom no doubt hold history degrees - ever seem to learn from it?
I try as conscientiously as I can to be even-handed and liberal-minded with people who behave or think differently to me but there comes a point where, en masse, as the above quoted poster says, history shows us repeatedly that things explode into blood and violence. The fact that it happens repeatedly tends to indicate that it doesn't really solve anything but it must offer some illusion of a solution for it still to be 'tried' as an answer to irreconciliable differences.
What other answer is there? Particularly when the source of the societal irritation this time (as so often) is atavistically religious, with no room for compromise or amelioration?
This is one post that, I am almost ashamed to say (because of it's implicit right-wing militarism), could have been written by me:
Very soon the population of Europe will finally be exhausted by the demands of this the most agressive minority group and hit back with the same extreme force moslems threaten us with."
I agree. I think that, in the not-too-distant future, non-Muslims in Europe will run out of patience and tolerance towards the minority of aggressively anti-western, potentially violent Islamist fanatics in their midst, and will also have despaired at the unwillingness or inability of their governments, police and intelligence services to neutralize the threat that they pose. And then - possibly egged on by right-wing nationalist movements such as the BNP - they will turn their anger on the Muslim community as a whole, and the ensuing civil unrest will make the race-riots of the early 80s look like a picnic.
It is unfortunate that a lot of 'moderate' Muslims will get caught in the middle. But this is what happens when they allow the fanatics to live in their midst and do nothing (or very little) to isolate and reject them. It is also what happens when you have governments that have ignored the concerns of its citizens and compromised their security, firstly by their blind pursuit of some naive utopian ideal of multiculturalism, and secondly by their continued and servile acquiescence to the demands of ethno-religious pressure groups who have become skilled at portraying themslves as the victims of racism, bigotry and religious intolerance, rather than the perpetrators of the same.
History is full of lessons about what happens when two mutually incompatible and naturally antagonistic cultures are forced to live cheek-by-jowl with each other. Why don't our politicians - some of whom no doubt hold history degrees - ever seem to learn from it?
I try as conscientiously as I can to be even-handed and liberal-minded with people who behave or think differently to me but there comes a point where, en masse, as the above quoted poster says, history shows us repeatedly that things explode into blood and violence. The fact that it happens repeatedly tends to indicate that it doesn't really solve anything but it must offer some illusion of a solution for it still to be 'tried' as an answer to irreconciliable differences.
What other answer is there? Particularly when the source of the societal irritation this time (as so often) is atavistically religious, with no room for compromise or amelioration?
CoryKS
Senior Master
There are a number of people that have been stating for years that Europeans need to reassert their culture before things progress too far, precisely to avoid the backlash that usually follows. They generally get labeled as racists and nationalists. Mark Steyn is one who has written extensively about this. Bruce Bawer is another. You know something interesting is going on when a gay man, who wrote a book critical of Christian fundamentalists and then moved from the US to Europe in order to live with his partner in a more tolerant society, writes a book called "While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam is Destroying the West from Within".
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Suke, in this case though, it really was 1 Guy trying to Fob his innability to Deal on those around him. This guy's cry of being a devout muslim who was being dragged kicking and screaming ( in his mind anyway) into the sewer he was living in is *********e! I have heard that SAME rant firsthand from both the totally Franchised up the **** and Disenfranchised. It all smells the exact same, like *****! Heaven forbid they should grab a pair and Man the F- up. Admit your faults, stop whinging and Soldier On! God I'm getting sick of Whiners.
Sick of them wanting ALL the personalFreedoms/Rights/Entitlements their little hearts desire without the personal Accountability that PAYS for all that freedom. Just sick to death of it. Perhaps it's a backlash against the Laissez-faire liv'n let live attitude of the past decade.
or maybe it's just me. Yep, it's likley just me. Too many steroids in my wheaties this morning. -vampfeed- lori
Sick of them wanting ALL the personal
Freedoms/Rights/Entitlements their little hearts desire without the personal Accountability that PAYS for all that freedom. Just sick to death of it. Perhaps it's a backlash against the Laissez-faire liv'n let live attitude of the past decade. or maybe it's just me. Yep, it's likley just me. Too many steroids in my wheaties this morning. -vampfeed- lori
OP
- Thread Starter
- #25
Suke, in this case though, it really was 1 Guy trying to Fob his innability to Deal on those around him. This guy's cry of being a devout muslim who was being dragged kicking and screaming ( in his mind anyway) into the sewer he was living in is *********e! I have heard that SAME rant firsthand from both the totally Franchised up the **** and Disenfranchised. It all smells the exact same, like *****! Heaven forbid they should grab a pair and Man the F- up. Admit your faults, stop whinging and Soldier On! God I'm getting sick of Whiners.
Sick of them wanting ALL the personal
or maybe it's just me. Yep, it's likley just me. Too many steroids in my wheaties this morning. -vampfeed- lori
:asian::asian::asian:
Sadly, I can only thank you once for this post.
I don't know about the steroid-laced-wheeties, Lori but I do concur that just as a once heard cry was "No taxation without representation" then one that is growing in strength is akin to "No representation without integration".
So many of the responders to the article in the OP have said much that boils down to that sentiment viz the refusal to become a useful part of the host culture and, if not harmonious, at least not irrationally disharmonious.
At the end of the day, I do not think it unreasonable to have a "While you're under my roof you'll abide by my rules" attitude. It's what my father enforced with me when I was a 'teen and altho' a country is more complex than a single household it is still a good principle (expanded to include "While you're here you will not try to remodel the house or burn it down").
So many of the responders to the article in the OP have said much that boils down to that sentiment viz the refusal to become a useful part of the host culture and, if not harmonious, at least not irrationally disharmonious.
At the end of the day, I do not think it unreasonable to have a "While you're under my roof you'll abide by my rules" attitude. It's what my father enforced with me when I was a 'teen and altho' a country is more complex than a single household it is still a good principle (expanded to include "While you're here you will not try to remodel the house or burn it down").
CoryKS
Senior Master
Suke, in this case though, it really was 1 Guy trying to Fob his innability to Deal on those around him. This guy's cry of being a devout muslim who was being dragged kicking and screaming ( in his mind anyway) into the sewer he was living in is *********e! I have heard that SAME rant firsthand from both the totally Franchised up the **** and Disenfranchised. It all smells the exact same, like *****! Heaven forbid they should grab a pair and Man the F- up. Admit your faults, stop whinging and Soldier On! God I'm getting sick of Whiners.
Sick of them wanting ALL the personal
or maybe it's just me. Yep, it's likley just me. Too many steroids in my wheaties this morning. -vampfeed- lori
Yes, in Farouk's case you are absolutely correct. But there's a larger thing going on than just one person's inability to deal, of which this article itself is a very small piece. This is a muslim woman opining in a British paper that Western society must - must, mind you - change its ways in order to avoid catastrophe at the hands of the lust-crazed muslim male. Does that seem arrogant to you? What confidence in one's own fringe culture would one need to have to write this article? What lack of confidence on the part of the majority culture would lead one to believe that this would be well-received? There is a minority group that is getting very comfortable with calling the shots, sometimes very literally.
The next step will be to agitate allow the Muslim community the right to administer Sharia Law within western countries!! Happy days!!
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=33173
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=33173
OP
- Thread Starter
- #29
Bringing in sharia law would be the worst thing governments could ever do.
They tried to bring it in up here a few years ago, and the Ontario government, thankfully said NO!
One country, many peoples, one law.
Ramirez
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Having grown up in one of the most multicultural cities in the world, the insular nature of first generation immigrants almost completely disappears in the 2nd generation, their kids end up playing hockey, viewing porno , trying their best to get laid whether they attend a mosque, church, temple whatever.
In fact I know 2nd generation italian, greek, Indian immigrants who refused to speak anything but English while they were growing up.
I do find that all these arguments against multi-culturalism are a veiled reference just to Muslims, most of this board is practicing some form of Asian martial arts, eating sushi, chinese food, curries. No one seems to have a problem with the local Portuguese, Greek or Polish club.
In fact I know 2nd generation italian, greek, Indian immigrants who refused to speak anything but English while they were growing up.
I do find that all these arguments against multi-culturalism are a veiled reference just to Muslims, most of this board is practicing some form of Asian martial arts, eating sushi, chinese food, curries. No one seems to have a problem with the local Portuguese, Greek or Polish club.
Ramirez
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Ever think that you might be attending a mosque and speaking Arab if it wasn't for multiculturalism?
The Renaissance originated in Spain and Italy where there was a great mixing of cultures, Europeans only rediscovered greek science and mathematics because their Arabic neighbours preserved the knowledge in Arabic texts, the Muslims also introduced the Arabic number system (although it is really Indian).
Modern commerce, science and engineering wouldn't have progressed trying to use the Roman numeral system.
My guess is if that knowledge had remained exclusively in the Arab world, the economic and technological advantage they would have had would have lead them to dominate the Europeans.
You are absolutely right in all that you say there, Ramirez. You'll ger no argument from me .
I think perhaps we are using the term in slightly different contexts. When I say that multiculturalism is a myth, what I am referring to is the warped conceptualisation of it that has been imposed from above here in the UK. What it has lead to is not a blending of the best of the various cultures but the formation of schismed enclaves (Ghettoisation is the term sociologists like to use for this I think).
It has also lead to the impression (in equal parts real and imagined) that 'we' have become outsiders in our own country, with the rights of 'immigrants' put above our own. A classic example of this is that we are not allowed to 'fly the flag' outside our homes because it would be inspiring racial hatred.
To me, this is one of those times when good intentions have lead to bad consequences. For, previously, mixing cultures has lead to greater strength (after all, we British are a mongrel race with a little bit of almost everyone in us) but in the past half century it has lead to little but strife and social disintegration.
.I think perhaps we are using the term in slightly different contexts. When I say that multiculturalism is a myth, what I am referring to is the warped conceptualisation of it that has been imposed from above here in the UK. What it has lead to is not a blending of the best of the various cultures but the formation of schismed enclaves (Ghettoisation is the term sociologists like to use for this I think).
It has also lead to the impression (in equal parts real and imagined) that 'we' have become outsiders in our own country, with the rights of 'immigrants' put above our own. A classic example of this is that we are not allowed to 'fly the flag' outside our homes because it would be inspiring racial hatred.
To me, this is one of those times when good intentions have lead to bad consequences. For, previously, mixing cultures has lead to greater strength (after all, we British are a mongrel race with a little bit of almost everyone in us) but in the past half century it has lead to little but strife and social disintegration.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #33
Ramirez I dont see muslim bashing on this particular thread.
I dont disagree with what youve written; in fact I have voiced similar thoughts myself many times here. I was born and grew up in the city you mentioned.
Reread the link in the OP, its defending the actions of some young muslim men resorting to lashing out at the west, because they can not handle the society in which they live. They are not to blame for terrorist acts, but we are, because we allowed the degradation of our society.
I dont disagree with what youve written; in fact I have voiced similar thoughts myself many times here. I was born and grew up in the city you mentioned.
Reread the link in the OP, its defending the actions of some young muslim men resorting to lashing out at the west, because they can not handle the society in which they live. They are not to blame for terrorist acts, but we are, because we allowed the degradation of our society.
Ramirez
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I should have been more clear, I don't think Sukerkin is anti-muslim, I have read enough of his posts to know that. I was more referring to writers like Mark Steyn who is constantly bashing multiculturalism, when really what he is doing is using it as a cover for his racism.
Sukerkin is correct, we are not quite referring to the same thing when we are using the word multculturalism.
SensibleManiac
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Sorry dude but I have to say, Bollocks!
No, I'm not British, but I was born in the west, brought up in the west, lived my whole life in the west and am of Greek descent. I still keep some Greek traditions and culturally I am not very much involved in the culture I live in, I'm primarily an anglophone (mainly, although I do speak French, Greek and a little Italian.) I live in Quebec, even though I consider myself Canadian, in a province where the majority consider themselves "distinct" from the rest of Canada.
I get along here fine. So do MANY other cultures. Montreal is one of the most multicultural cities on Earth and we get along fine.
I speak the language but choose to speak primarily English in a French majority province. I don't consider myself a Quebecer, but a Canadian, it doesn't make me any less a part of where I am from.
As the world gets smaller and smaller, what we all need to become is more human and less of some fantasy that we think will keep us together, when clearly it will not.
When you were born, you were a human being, not a Brit.
If we were to focus on all the most important aspects of our lives and forget all the imaginary BS, the world would become a much better place.
I'm an optimist and believe that ultimately this will happen.
Let me also elaborate that I think rules like flying the flag possibly eliciting racial hate is really stupid.
Reasonable accomadation should be just that, reasonable.
I'm NOT making any excuses for extremism here, I think that fundamentalist anythings are full of *****. Everyone should obey the law of where they are at and respect the culture of the land they are living in, yes, but that shouldn't mean they are imprisoned by that culture unless they are living in a fascist state.
My point is simply if we remember to be human first and treat each other with a basic respect, then multiculturalism works, as it does in Montreal.
As for the author of that article, blaming society for crimes and evils has been used an excuse countless times by every criminal and lunatic around, it's nothing new and a pathetic attempt to justify wrongdoing.
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Ramirez
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Maybe now , but I grew up in Toronto in the 70s, I am sure Ken can confirm how terrible it was for South Asians in Toronto at the time and even anyone who looked different. They were called "pakis" and physically attacked regularly.
Even me , I am of Portuguese and Chinese background, that was close enough for me to be called Paki growing up.
I applaud your optimism {@ Sensible}. Sadly, I do not share it. For what I was addressing was not a single individual, such as yourself, who, at the most fundamental of levels, shares a high degree of common value with the 'new' culture that you were born into.
I do agree that people, as individuals, are quite capable of amending and adapting to each other so as to live in harmony if they are left to it. The conditions that we are facing that give rise to the matter noted in the OP, however, are not predicated upon people being left free to make such accomodations. What is occuring is a clash between cultures, fueled by differences in religion/ideology, where one side is incapable of compromise (even if individuals are willing), leading to friction.
If I had the wealth to do it, I would invite you to come and live in, say, Normacot or Shelton (areas of Stoke that now have representatives of the BNP) for a while and see if your views changed over time as to the plausibility of sustainable social cohesion. For what we had was a process of amalgamation and adaptation through the first and second generations that has been stalled and reversed in the third - only in a tiny minority but sufficient to act like yeast in a loaf, making what should be an insignificant dissaffection become a major problem. This is not just an element of rebellious youth expressing themselves before settling down to become productive members of the society into which they were born; it is an insidious ideology that directly lead to the bombings in London a couple of years ago.
There is a storm coming no matter how much we wish it otherwise and I do not see a way to divert it if we continue on the path we have presently set our feet upon. If you do see such a way, then I would be happy to embrace it because I too believe that cultures are weakened by internal divisions and that such divisiveness serves us all ill.
I do agree that people, as individuals, are quite capable of amending and adapting to each other so as to live in harmony if they are left to it. The conditions that we are facing that give rise to the matter noted in the OP, however, are not predicated upon people being left free to make such accomodations. What is occuring is a clash between cultures, fueled by differences in religion/ideology, where one side is incapable of compromise (even if individuals are willing), leading to friction.
If I had the wealth to do it, I would invite you to come and live in, say, Normacot or Shelton (areas of Stoke that now have representatives of the BNP) for a while and see if your views changed over time as to the plausibility of sustainable social cohesion. For what we had was a process of amalgamation and adaptation through the first and second generations that has been stalled and reversed in the third - only in a tiny minority but sufficient to act like yeast in a loaf, making what should be an insignificant dissaffection become a major problem. This is not just an element of rebellious youth expressing themselves before settling down to become productive members of the society into which they were born; it is an insidious ideology that directly lead to the bombings in London a couple of years ago.
There is a storm coming no matter how much we wish it otherwise and I do not see a way to divert it if we continue on the path we have presently set our feet upon. If you do see such a way, then I would be happy to embrace it because I too believe that cultures are weakened by internal divisions and that such divisiveness serves us all ill.
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SensibleManiac
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Thank you for this post.
I do agree that there is a storm coming, however, where we differ is in what we believe the problem and solution actually are.
More division is not the answer, and beliefs no matter how hard, do change over time and can be broken. Radicalism can change, it's not easy but the belief in radical idealogies starts with suffering, change that suffering and people can change if they want. I believe it is our responsibility to promote reason if we are ever to get past the growing problems.
Reason will win in the end but we have to do our best to promote it.
Like someone quoted in this thread, "all that is necessary for evil to exist is for good men to do nothing."
This is a great discussion about cultural integration and assimilation... but let's not forget that if we try to use phrasing or words from other cultures it's easy to miss nuances, especially without tone of voice or facial expression to soften a blow.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #40
I stand by what I said earlier:
I think our governments preach multiculturalism but the reality if very different. People simply will assimilate. Some places demand assimilation quickly, others let immigrants take their time, but they will almost all assimilate eventually. Within a generation or three the language and culture is gone and the immigrants are just like everyone else.
It takes a great effort to not assimilate into a culture and I think these people are the minority, and not the rule.
The Amish, the Mennonites and the Haredi jews all make a concerted effort to live within a culture and yet stay apart. It wouldnt surprise me if some of the more orthodox muslims ended up doing something similar sometime.
This article is simply about not taking responsibility for oneself or ones actions. They are transferring any and all responsibility regarding wrong doing onto others.
That being said, there are still many idiots in the west, though thankfully not as many as in the 1970s.
I really grew up in Malton, Ontario. A more multicultural town you could never find. I never had a friend nor dated anyone from my own ethnic group. We were mixed up so much, but we were all Canadians.
What Ive noticed as Ive gotten older, is that racists know no race. They exist in all cultures. Whites, Blacks, East Asians, Central American; none can claim to be racist free.
Sensiblemanic, I love Montreal. If I spoke more French other then counting and swear words Id move there in a heartbeat. Guys if youve never been to Montreal, do yourself a favour and go visit. If you do, send me a smoked meat sandwich from Schwartzs. http://www.schwartzsdeli.com/index2.html
I think our governments preach multiculturalism but the reality if very different. People simply will assimilate. Some places demand assimilation quickly, others let immigrants take their time, but they will almost all assimilate eventually. Within a generation or three the language and culture is gone and the immigrants are just like everyone else.
It takes a great effort to not assimilate into a culture and I think these people are the minority, and not the rule.
The Amish, the Mennonites and the Haredi jews all make a concerted effort to live within a culture and yet stay apart. It wouldnt surprise me if some of the more orthodox muslims ended up doing something similar sometime.
This article is simply about not taking responsibility for oneself or ones actions. They are transferring any and all responsibility regarding wrong doing onto others.
That being said, there are still many idiots in the west, though thankfully not as many as in the 1970s.
I really grew up in Malton, Ontario. A more multicultural town you could never find. I never had a friend nor dated anyone from my own ethnic group. We were mixed up so much, but we were all Canadians.
What Ive noticed as Ive gotten older, is that racists know no race. They exist in all cultures. Whites, Blacks, East Asians, Central American; none can claim to be racist free.
Sensiblemanic, I love Montreal. If I spoke more French other then counting and swear words Id move there in a heartbeat. Guys if youve never been to Montreal, do yourself a favour and go visit. If you do, send me a smoked meat sandwich from Schwartzs. http://www.schwartzsdeli.com/index2.html
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