Laying Down

[MJS]

Its often said that Kenpo is not effective while on the ground. Not too long ago I had a chat with someone regarding applications of Kenpo techniques while grappling. I decided to apply some ideas/concepts while my training partner had me in the mounted position. Surprisingly, there were a number of them in which parts could be applied. Delayed Sword, Crossing Talon and Hooking Wings were a few that I found.

Has anyone else attempted the use of the techniques while on the ground?

Mike

 

[Flying Crane]

I would expect that much would still work, in a modified form. Just because you find yourself on the ground grappling with someone doesn't mean you have to grapple, if grappling is not where your skills lie. You can still punch, kick, poke, gouge and rip even when you are on the ground in a tie-up. I think it is a separation from what might be termed "sport grappling" vs. just using whatever is necessary to neutralize an opponent while on the ground.

 

[MJS]

I would expect that much would still work, in a modified form. Just because you find yourself on the ground grappling with someone doesn't mean you have to grapple, if grappling is not where your skills lie. You can still punch, kick, poke, gouge and rip even when you are on the ground in a tie-up. I think it is a separation from what might be termed "sport grappling" vs. just using whatever is necessary to neutralize an opponent while on the ground.

Exactly!!! While I'll always feel that its important to have an understanding of the ground, ultimately the goal is not to stay there and grapple, but do what you have to do, to get back to your feet.

Mike

 

[Rob Broad]

I have heard a few seniors say that fighting on the ground is just changing the plain you are working on and many techniques will work from the mounted position or while on the ground.

 

[Andrew Green]

Grappling is like footwork, it just takes into account many different positions you can find yourself in. Footwork is the key to fighting seperated, and positional grappling is the key to fighting on the ground or in a clinch.

Some of the stuff might work, in the same way it works standing firmly in one place. But without movement you're a sitting duck against someone who knows how to move and how to use position to there advantage.

The grappling vs striking argument is really kind of silly as I can mount you and hit you at the same time, or use strikes to aid in covering my positional advances.

Submissions vs KO as ways to win maybe, but positional grappling is movement, and in the same catagory as footwork.

 

[Seabrook]

At the east coast LTKKA camp I attended a few weeks ago, it also became apparent how many techniques from our curriculum have built-in anti-grappling applications, should a grappler try to take us down.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Rob Broad]

The other major consideration is how often is a competent Knepo practioner going to get into an altercation with a competent and trained grappler.

 

[Seabrook]

The other major consideration is how often is a competent Knepo practioner going to get into an altercation with a competent and trained grappler.

While we want to train for ALL circumstances and situations, that is a great point Rob.


Jamie Seabrook

 

[Andrew Green]

I have heard a few seniors say that fighting on the ground is just changing the plain you are working on and many techniques will work from the mounted position or while on the ground.

The other major consideration is how often is a competent Knepo practioner going to get into an altercation with a competent and trained grappler.

So you're saying it will work just fine, but lets just sweep it under the rug as it's not likely to ever happen and we shouldn't think about it?

If ground work is not something you do that's fine. But be honest about it, saying "We don't do it cause it's not likely to happen, but don't worry our stuff works there too" is not doing anyone any favours.

Truth is you are not likely to get in any fights with anyone, so why bother training at all?

 

[Rob Broad]

Actually I do train ground work, and have found many of the principles in kenpo will work while down.

Other than sport martial arts, how many times have you seen or heard of two trained people going at each other with real intent. Yes it happened in the 60's and early 70's during the "Dojo Wars". But it doesn't happen these days. Your self defense training should be focused on the most probable attacks.

 

[MJS]

Gentlemen:

I see the direction that this thread is going, which is not the direction that I had intended.

I did not start this thread to rehash the well beaten standup vs. ground game. I wanted to discuss success with Kenpo techniques. I am looking for specific techniques that you may have been able to apply. I gave a few examples, and I was looking for others to do the same.

Please, lets stay civil and return to the main topic.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Andrew Green]

But it doesn't happen these days. Your self defense training should be focused on the most probable attacks.

Which are? And where do you source this information from?

How often have you been attacked at random? Personally, outside of the gym I never get in fights.

 

[Andrew Green]

I wanted to discuss success with Kenpo techniques. I am looking for specific techniques that you may have been able to apply.

Actually a lot of them probably will work, I don't know enough about kenpo to name examples though, but the body only works in certain ways. Whether it is mount, guard, knee in the belly or werever you are you will likely be able to find some stuff that works.

But, this is essentially standing in one place fighting if you compare it to what you are doing on your feet. The attacks and defences alone are not what makes you a good fighter, you need footwork, timing and strategy. The ability to use positioning and angles to your advantage in order to pull those techniques off.

Same thing on the ground, learning the techniques is good, but without movement they are near impossible to make use of in a live environment against anyone with even basic movements.

So, for anyone looking at bringing ground work into the mix, I strongly reccomend learning sweeps, escapes, guard passing, advancing postion, etc. before you even start too look for offensive techniques that can be applied.

 

[Casey_Sutherland]

Which are? And where do you source this information from?

How often have you been attacked at random? Personally, outside of the gym I never get in fights.

Enough. I have been personally randomly attacked with intent without knowing the assailant whatsoever. I think kenpo has some very good principles of physics and body mechanics that would help an attack on the ground, standing up, or if the attacker is half monkey and is flying through the air. I think that a lot of the time kenpoists get caught up in just techniques, yet there is a lot more to focus on like power principle, angles or attack, environment, etc. SGM parker was a genious.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Just curious here.

Anyone ever decide to try their skills against a grappler before? A good grappler, mediocre, or how about just a beginner that has a great instructor?

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Just curious here.

Anyone ever decide to try their skills against a grappler before? A good grappler, mediocre, or how about just a beginner that has a great instructor?

UHHHH DUUUHHHH!!!!!

Wouldn't preach it if I didn't do it.

DarK LorD

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Just curious here.

Anyone ever decide to try their skills against a grappler before? A good grappler, mediocre, or how about just a beginner that has a great instructor?

Tried them against some great grapplers. Before the UFC, there weren't a lot of guys doing BJJ. I started with the Gracies in Torrance; they were glad to have a big guy to toss around for practice (most of the other students training there were small guys). We did a lot of "good guy/bad guy" drills. One of them was to put on boxing gloves, and hold off a guy practicing shoots. Being the big guy, I drew the short straw to box Royce for demo purposes. Sez I, "Here's my chance to make an impression".

Well, I popped him on the way in by dropping height zones. It was just enough to make the uppity skinny Brazilian jocularly miffed, and I paid. Dearly. I also didn't manage to get off follow-up shots. It's harder than it looks. And if the grappler is good, in kenpo terms, your options are checked prior to even discovering their possibilities for execution.

The guys I shared the drive with (diamond lane from OC to Torrance very important) were both blacks in kenpo cousins...German's TAI, and Kajukenbo. We frequently got together off line to not only refine our ground-fighting, but also to devise kenpo-based approaches to managing weapons and distance with grapplers...sort of a "to beat them, join them". The best we came up with was modifying kenpo weapons and universal movement patterns for offensive application from some of the superior positions. I.E., mount the guy and do first part of five swords when he swings...softens him a bit, making him more pliable for transitions to chokes.

Or, if you're knee-up on him and he goes to press your knee off, well, how many techs are there in 154 against low pushes or grabs?

Going for a collar choke from the mount and he grabs your right hand with your right hand? Part of crossing talon applys quite nicely, though obviously you don't get the whole tech+extension off...you're on the floor. (step with your left foot to place it next to the right side of his head while he's supine...it will modify the depth and position to allow you to get through more of it, and you can still control his mobility vis the inside of the right knee and the hyperextending pressure on the right wrist & elbow).

In BJJ, if the guy on the bottom two-hand presses you on the chest, you either "swim through" the resistance to maintain the mount, or thank him for the gift and take an arm-bar. What about modifying parting wings?

Guy on the bottom grabs your gi...what about lone kimono? Sure, you lose the footwork, but the combination of strikes works nicely.

So, anyways, you can apply kenpo in grappling, but in my own experience, it works better from the top than the bottom.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Andrew Green]

So, anyways, you can apply kenpo in grappling, but in my own experience, it works better from the top than the bottom.

Everything works better from the top

 

[jfarnsworth]

...Well, I popped him on the way in by dropping height zones. It was just enough to make the uppity skinny Brazilian jocularly miffed, and I paid. Dearly. I also didn't manage to get off follow-up shots. It's harder than it looks. And if the grappler is good, in kenpo terms, your options are checked prior to even discovering their possibilities for execution.

Exactly what I'm talking about, Sir. I was always told that when you have to fight assume the guy is just as good or better than you are. Even with the wrestling back ground I had in school I didn't compare to some of my friends yellow belts on the mat. For me, I want to be prepared for all ranges. Thanks for the dialogue.

 

[Casey_Sutherland]

Just a quick concern, do grapplers ever train with strikes like eye gauges or more of a maming attack? I am not too well versed with grappling but in epak there are multitudes of maming and strikes that penetrate with precision i.e eye whips, ripping off someones balls, etc. With that in mind how does kenpo translate to grappling? is there usually an opening for such attacks in an optimum scenario?