Applying Your Techniques While On The Ground

[psi_radar]

Thanks guys!

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

I can tell you that this is something that I have been experimenting with for about 2 years now and I will say that yes without a doubt that some of the techniques can work on the group.

I use the 1st 3 moves of 5 swords to get out of the guard all the time against trained bjj grapplers.

establish your base (on your knees). R horizintal outward heel palm to the R floating rib/liver then R heel palm to there solar plexus with at the same time use all the torque to execute a R back elbow to thier L thigh (you do this right and I promise they will let go). Thier gurad will then be broken. Execute a R pressing forarm strike to thier L thigh and make sure thier L thigh is on the mat (make sure your L hand it up high to check the right leg from kicking you). Then roll your L hand either over or under thier R thigh so that you can either escape by going over thier leg to the 1/2 guard or take thier R legs and pass it it front of you.

You guys play with that and tell me what you think. If anyone is interested I can take a video clip of me doing to to help explain what I am talking about.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I can tell you that this is something that I have been experimenting with for about 2 years now and I will say that yes without a doubt that some of the techniques can work on the group.

I use the 1st 3 moves of 5 swords to get out of the guard all the time against trained bjj grapplers.

establish your base (on your knees). R horizintal outward heel palm to the R floating rib/liver then R heel palm to there solar plexus with at the same time use all the torque to execute a R back elbow to thier L thigh (you do this right and I promise they will let go). Thier gurad will then be broken. Execute a R pressing forarm strike to thier L thigh and make sure thier L thigh is on the mat (make sure your L hand it up high to check the right leg from kicking you). Then roll your L hand either over or under thier R thigh so that you can either escape by going over thier leg to the 1/2 guard or take thier R legs and pass it it front of you.

You guys play with that and tell me what you think. If anyone is interested I can take a video clip of me doing to to help explain what I am talking about.

Question...against an "experienced" grappler how are you getting the distance and free use of your limbs to do this? That would be step one which means that they have to have failed to 1) Break your posture and 2) Control your limbs. Without 1) and 2) someone from inside the guard can do anything they want. In other words more of a bad guard than kenpo working on the ground.

But what are you doing to get free use of the limbs and get your posture before beginning your assault? That's what interests me the most as the five swords to the targets you selected should at the least open the guard.

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

1st thing: I am an experienced grappler myself (20+ yrs wrestling, 3 yrs bjj/submission wrestling) so I understnad your point. This particular escape does not work so well against the open guard or butterfly guard so folks that have a very active guard like that well I have a few other ideas for that. However, if they are actively trying to tie up my arm this is usualy done by them trying to controll your elbows by pulling towards thier own head. I simply create a wedge/triangle with my arms (hands close together and elbows apart) and as they are pull up on my arms I roll my elbows out and roll my palms from the up position to palm down thus going with the force and they will lose thier hold because they no longer have a bracing angle to hol on to. It works well but then you have to then flow right into the escape.

A little birdy told me you were gonna be at Josh's place in PA for the Cacoy, Whitson seminar and I was hoping to finially meet up with you there. Maybe another event.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

1st thing: I am an experienced grappler myself (20+ yrs wrestling, 3 yrs bjj/submission wrestling) so I understnad your point. This particular escape does not work so well against the open guard or butterfly guard so folks that have a very active guard like that well I have a few other ideas for that. However, if they are actively trying to tie up my arm this is usualy done by them trying to controll your elbows by pulling towards thier own head. I simply create a wedge/triangle with my arms (hands close together and elbows apart) and as they are pull up on my arms I roll my elbows out and roll my palms from the up position to palm down thus going with the force and they will lose thier hold because they no longer have a bracing angle to hol on to. It works well but then you have to then flow right into the escape.

A little birdy told me you were gonna be at Josh's place in PA for the Cacoy, Whitson seminar and I was hoping to finially meet up with you there. Maybe another event.

D***! I forgot all about that seminar! ARRRRRRRRRGHHHHH!!! Sorry, had to vent. I can't believe I forgot about that! I was supposed to be there, the "little" birdy (If it's who I think it's a BIG birdy) was right.

 

[Warrior-Scholar]

I think the attempt to find grappling applications for the Kenpo material, whether is was there or not from the beginning, is an admiral and important task.

Would it be more efficient to learn a pure grappling system, then learn a pure striking system and attempt to blend those together or keep one system as the base and adapt the secondary art to meet the needs of the first? This is not a rhetorical question. Please give opinions.

It is a repeating question in my mind. If I learn two disparate systems, then how well will I synthesize these two in a combative scenario? Does such training create a schizophrenic fighter unable to make correct decisions? I guess it doesn't have to.

Each technique in Kenpo should be analyzed and evaluated for use with different styles of fighters during the "what if" phase. So, even though some techniques deal with tackles etc., what would you do on 5 Swords if someone attempts a single leg takedown after the punch? How would you adapt? The only reason I even ask this question is due to the popularity of such fighting on television and the abundance of groundfighting schools out there. It is simply a way people are learning to fight now. That may change in 20 years.

90% of the time the person will have to bridge the gap and effect a takedown. Thus, shouldn't we spend more time working on Kenpo techniques in this range than from our backs. On the ground I will resort to the nastiest things in my head because I don't want to be there. Beware the caged animal!!! If a grappler is intent on doing those things to me, I doubt he would have committed multiple weapons to a takedown to start the fight. As mentioned, it is simply harder for a traditional Kenpoist to make techniques work from that position (I didn't say impossible!). I am merely stating that in adapting our Kenpo to grappling scenarios, shouldn't we focus on the moments just before going to the ground more or at least equally? Why don't we see more fighters in these so-called "NHB" tournaments accidentally striking illegally? Do they really all have that much control over their fighting ability? I seriously doubt it-some of these kids acknowledge training for 2-3 years before stepping into the ring. I believe many of them don't even think outside the box on some of these issues. Personally, I don't like to get hurt. You can bet I will hit someone's mastoid, spine, eyes, testicles and throat if they get that close and go low. In fact, that is exactly how I train EVERY day.

By the way, a standing wrist grab is technically grappling. Many people just assume grappling means "on the ground".
Now I am rambling...too much training and not enough sleep. Pardon my imperfections!

 

[Ceicei]

I think the attempt to find grappling applications for the Kenpo material, whether is was there or not from the beginning, is an admiral and important task.

Would it be more efficient to learn a pure grappling system, then learn a pure striking system and attempt to blend those together or keep one system as the base and adapt the secondary art to meet the needs of the first? This is not a rhetorical question. Please give opinions.

Well, that is basically what I am doing. I am currently a 2nd brown in EPAK and white belt testing for yellow in DZRJ. My intent is to have kenpo as my base and because of jujitsu being my secondary, I will understand the existing grappling parts in the kenpo techniques and make these specific moves better. Already, I can see a difference with kenpo even with my limited knowledge of jujitsu at this point.

It is a repeating question in my mind. If I learn two disparate systems, then how well will I synthesize these two in a combative scenario? Does such training create a schizophrenic fighter unable to make correct decisions? I guess it doesn't have to.

Well, I think these two will blend together well once I learn my second art better. In jujitsu, I will be participating in a freestyle tournament at the end of the month. We were practicing for that in class now to prepare. I found that initially in the freestyle matches, I tend to default to kenpo (it is what I knew best and already hardwired into me), but as I warmed up and and relaxed some more, I was able to transition my mind to jujitsu. Funny, but there are several moves in DZRJ that is similar to Kenpo already, so I am assured that I will do fine. The more experienced I get with jujitsu, I do not forsee any problems of being able to blend them when needed.

Each technique in Kenpo should be analyzed and evaluated for use with different styles of fighters during the "what if" phase. So, even though some techniques deal with tackles etc., what would you do on 5 Swords if someone attempts a single leg takedown after the punch? How would you adapt? The only reason I even ask this question is due to the popularity of such fighting on television and the abundance of groundfighting schools out there. It is simply a way people are learning to fight now. That may change in 20 years.

90% of the time the person will have to bridge the gap and effect a takedown. Thus, shouldn't we spend more time working on Kenpo techniques in this range than from our backs. On the ground I will resort to the nastiest things in my head because I don't want to be there. Beware the caged animal!!! If a grappler is intent on doing those things to me, I doubt he would have committed multiple weapons to a takedown to start the fight.

Agreed.

As mentioned, it is simply harder for a traditional Kenpoist to make techniques work from that position (I didn't say impossible!). I am merely stating that in adapting our Kenpo to grappling scenarios, shouldn't we focus on the moments just before going to the ground more or at least equally?

My studio does teach some additional techniques using grappling from the ground kenpo-style (we call them badger techniques). Most of the badger techniques, however, are geared for the children's curriculum.

I find there is a lot of resistance among the adults, especially from "kenpo purists". I do not see anything wrong with learning more and cross training with a grappling style. In fact, I think it is a great idea! My opinion, I admit, is from the viewpoint as a female who was previously attacked and thus I feel more of a need/emphasis to be able to adapt kenpo in defending from that position.

- Ceicei