Applying Your Techniques While On The Ground

[Brother John]

if it's always been there shouldn't all the people that trained with Ed Parker remember him teaching it? Possibly even have video evidence?

I'm sure a lot of the same concepts apply, people only move in so many ways. But the "It was always there" claim is silly, it wasn't, same with all the karate, TKD and Kung Fu people that suddenly realised it was always there when grappling became popular.

I think it's great that lots of people are trying to expand into new areas, but claiming it was always there IMO degrades the system. It wasn't there, and why claim it was? Shouldn't the system have enough strengths on it's own to not have to make claims that it is things that it never was?

Though I understand where you are coming from, and agree that no Kenpoist (who's not cross-trained) should claim that Kenpo is a "Grappling System".....There IS grappling within the techniques. Not a LOT of it, but it is in there. I think this reflects that Mr. Parker had a BB in Judo, and some of his top students studied Judo and or Jujutsu. People can study and extract the grappling elements from w/in Kenpo, elaborate on them and (hopefully) expound on them greatly by cross-training with folks from actual Grappling Systems......and then their grappling may excell.
It's IN THERE, but it's not a main feature.............unless you make it so.

Your Brother
John

 

[Carol]

Though I understand where you are coming from, and agree that no Kenpoist (who's not cross-trained) should claim that Kenpo is a "Grappling System".....There IS grappling within the techniques. Not a LOT of it, but it is in there. I think this reflects that Mr. Parker had a BB in Judo, and some of his top students studied Judo and or Jujutsu. People can study and extract the grappling elements from w/in Kenpo, elaborate on them and (hopefully) expound on them greatly by cross-training with folks from actual Grappling Systems......and then their grappling may excell.
It's IN THERE, but it's not a main feature.............unless you make it so.

Your Brother
John

I'm probably the least qualified to comment here, but here goes.

Most of my instructors have some very deep training in BJJ. We don't offer BJJ classes, but we will offer it as an optional part of certain classes. No one has to grapple if they don't want to...but for those that do they have given us a few basics. I don't consider my grappling skills to be much to brag about...but this is my impressions.

Kenpo to me is like a dialog. Right hook to the attacker's temple. He holds where it hurts, raising his hand opening up his ribs to attack. Our techniques seem to script common, or at least reasonable dialogs.

To me BJJ isn't a dialalog, its a high stakes chess match. The strategy is thicker. I'm not only thinking of my next move, I'm thinking 3 moves ahead. The risks...to me...are bigger. An opponent twice my weight is not hard to find. Fending him off while on my feet is tough. Fending him off on the ground is even harder. The experience was very sobering.

Grappling gives me a different thought process. I try to sense minute differences in balance to see if I can find any kind of advantage. My spatial orientation gets a good workout trying to process different ways I can entangle my own limbs to get a desired result.

For someone that knows Kenpo a lot better than I do (which is all of you, I think ) it may be very easy to draw the paralells and mach the patterns. For me it feels like a different game altogether. Not saying that's right or wrong...just what's in my thick skull.

 

[Brother John]

There is a huge difference there, but it's comparing the feel and mindset of a grappling dominant system to a striking dominant system.
Apples /=/ Oranges
BUT: that still doesn't mean that there's NO grappling, even Very worthwhile grappling, W/in Kenpo.
But I think I understand what you're saying.

Your Brother
John

 

[Carol]

There is a huge difference there, but it's comparing the feel and mindset of a grappling dominant system to a striking dominant system.
Apples /=/ Oranges
BUT: that still doesn't mean that there's NO grappling, even Very worthwhile grappling, W/in Kenpo.
But I think I understand what you're saying.

Your Brother
John

Including me grappling to understand it all...

*ducking for cover*

 

[kenpohack]

My instructor thinks it's possible to apply kenpo techniques on the ground. I remain somewhat skeptical. However, he does freely admit that kenpo manipulates 3 dimensions (height, width, and depth) while you don't have depth to manipulate in bjj. This does pose some problems, since most kenpo techniques require depth for power generation or the ability to check depth to prevent counterattack. That being said...he says the first move of crashing wings can by used to break a closed guard. I've never tried it. Also, the attacks to entangled wing and twisted twig basically constitute a Americana from a standing postition. I suppose that the same initial move in both techniques may apply to an Americana on the ground. Although, thrusting my arm straight over my head and rotating into my opponent usually works, too.

Obviously, many kenpo strikes work well from the mount. While in the half guard, you can sweep an opponent with a motion similar to securing the storm. That's all I really know at this point.

 

[simon]

another way of looking at it could be any other martial art can say " our art contains american kenpo,you just have to extract it from what we already do"

all arts contain the base movements and have some basic knowledge of fighting in most areas, ive met some taekwondo and karates that claim to have locks and takedowns...but they only actually practice them once in a blue moon,meaning that when it comes to using them in a self defence situation then it wont get used.
i understand what your saying and want to understand the ground work side but the only real way you can understand grappling is to train under a grappling instructor...........if you tried grappling against another non grappler then you wouldnt learn as much as you would grappling a trained grappler ,then take that knowledge back to your club then decipher what constitutes as american kenpo and whether you could use it in your system.

SALUTE

 

[HKphooey]

I would assume that the motor skills you have learned in your kenpo training will kick in no matter if your are vertical or horizontal. It would be no different if you were sitting in a chair or your car. You may lose the legs and gravity principles, but the hands and upper body manipulation are still there.

IMO, this is what kenpo training is all about. May have have been designed for it, but it does not mean it will not work in a ground fighting situation.

When I watch MMA fights, some of the major missing components that are missing are gouges, rakes, eye pokes (and the rest of the finger sets). Kenpo has all of those and in a street fight those are fair game.

I worked this idea in classa few weeks ago and many kenpo movements (I'll use that phrase instead of technique) would work on the ground. Not saying that is the best choice, but it is what many of us have drilled into our subconscious.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Good thread.

 

[simon]

but now your comparing mma ( competition) with self defence, how many kenpo competitions use eye gauges and fish hooks???


SALUTE

 

[HKphooey]

but now your comparing mma ( competition) with self defence, how many kenpo competitions use eye gauges and fish hooks???


SALUTE

Lol! I think you get the jist of what I am trying to say (at least I hope).

In kenpo training we use most of those strikes on a daily basis and they are part of most techniques so they are second nature.

 

[MJS]

i understand what your saying and want to understand the ground work side but the only real way you can understand grappling is to train under a grappling instructor...........if you tried grappling against another non grappler then you wouldnt learn as much as you would grappling a trained grappler ,then take that knowledge back to your club then decipher what constitutes as american kenpo and whether you could use it in your system.

SALUTE

Yes, thats a good point. Thats one of the reasons why I've always been an advocate of cross training. Again, my goal isn't to try to 'out grapple' someone on the ground. I'm looking for the best and quickest way to escape and get back to my feet.

Mike

 

[simon]

then let someone take you down and use your kenpo.
in jj we teach everything is valid on the street,but in the uk we have to be very wary of the law, i know other countrys dont have this problem,but good luck and just try iot out.

maybe even post your results what took you unawares, what you expected and maybe the outcome.

SALUTE

 

[MJS]

then let someone take you down and use your kenpo.
in jj we teach everything is valid on the street,but in the uk we have to be very wary of the law, i know other countrys dont have this problem,but good luck and just try iot out.

maybe even post your results what took you unawares, what you expected and maybe the outcome.

SALUTE

I have worked on this and have had some luck. Again, as its been said, the idea is not to assume that we'll be turned into expert grapplers. I have a background in BJJ so that is a help as well.

Out of curiosity, do you have a background in Kenpo? Its always easier to understand where we as Kenpoists, are coming from, if you can relate to the techniques.

Mike

 

[matt.m]

I will have to go with the "Arts were more complete back in the day" thought as well. I mean the GM that teaches me tkd has told me that at one time self defense techniques were also taught in the cirriculum. Not hapkido, but hapkido esque types of self defense. He showed me a few but they are not part of the testing cirriculum.

I would like to see just exactly what Taekyon's cirriculum was back in the 1600's.

 

[simon]

mjs- im studying american kenpo also.
i was very impressed with it a few years back and have been studying eversince, im waiting to see if im ratified as shodan so i have a clear understanding of kenpo techs,this is why i feel ( in my opinion..which may differ from others lol but always in a freindly and respectful way).
that i can comment abuot the kenpo/jujitsu techs.


my main concern is that kenpo being primaraly a striking art and employs the use of physics for striking, those physics principles differ greatly from the way a grappler/jujitsu practices when striking on the ground.
i personnaly have always relied on pure grappling when on the ground as opposed to striking, but this was always so i knew i was working my jj.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

my main concern is that kenpo being primaraly a striking art and employs the use of physics for striking, those physics principles differ greatly from the way a grappler/jujitsu practices when striking on the ground.

I would have to disagree. Here is an article I posted elsewhere...

The Judo/Ju Jitsu in Kenpo

Throws of the Kodokan and the Kenpo Techniques they appear in either as the throw itself or as the entry of the throw (sometimes hidden sometimes blatantly obvious). (Visit http://www.judoinfo.com/gokyo1.htm and http://www.judoinfo.com/gokyo.htm for videos of Judo variants)

This list is not meant to be all-inclusive. It is only a primer.

De-ashi-harai = Glancing Spear, Dance of Darkness, Flashing Wings ext.
Uki-goshi = Destructive Twins Ext., Marriage of the Rams
Osoto-gari = Sleeper, Tripping Arrow, Dominating Circles, Circling the Horizon etc.
O-goshi = Securing the Storm, Spreading Branch, Raining Claw ext.
Ouchi-gari = Desperate Falcons, Spreading Branch
Seoi-nage = Obscure Wing ext., Twisted Twig ext., Circles of Protection ext., Thrusting Wedge
Kosoto-gari = See De-ashi-harai
Kouchi-gari = Captured leaves ext, Scraping Hoof ext
Koshi-guruma = Sleeper
Tsurikomi-goshi = Begging Hands ext
Okuri-ashi-harai = Prance of the Tiger, Glancing Wing
Tai-Otoshi = Taming the Mace
Harai-goshi = Sleeper
Uchi-mata = Gripping Talon, Destructive Twins ext, Spreading Branch, Squeezing the Peach ext
Tsuri-goshi = Locked Wing, Broken Ram, Securing the Storm
Tomoe-nage = Parting Wings, Twist of Fate, Encounter with Danger
Kata-guruma = Bow of Compulsion, Bowing to Buddha, Locking Horns, Calming the Storm
Sumi-gaeshi = Encounter with Danger, Parting Wings, Intercepting the Ram
Hane-makikomi = Triggered Salute, Calming the Storm, Repeated Devastation, Twirling Sacrifice
Sukui-nage = Twirling Sacrifice, Crashing Wings, Crushing Hammer, Escape from Death
Ushiro-goshi = Grasp of Death, Grip of Death
Ura-nage = Grasp of Death, Grip of Death, Escape from Death, Circles of Protection
Hikikomi-gaeshi = Defying the Storm
Tawara-gaeshi = Intercepting the Ram
Kuchiki-taoshi = Dance of Death, Brushing the Storm, Thrusting Wedge ext, Bowing to Buddha

Grappling Techniques of Judo/Ju Jitsu in Kenpo

Juji-jime = Cross of Death, Fatal Cross
Kata-gatame = Sleeper
Hadaka-jime = Escape from Death
Ryote-jime = Heavenly Ascent
Ude-garami = Entangled Wing, Raining Claw ext, Repeated Devastation ext
Waki-gatame = Crossing Talon, Evading the Storm ext
Ude-gatame = Escape from Death, Grip of Death, Thrusting Prong, Raining Claw ext, Marriage of the Rams
Te-gatame = Lone Kimono
Kanuuki-gatame = Securing the Storm
Tate-hishigi = Locking Horns
Nikkyo = Spiraling Twig, Crossing Talon, Snaking Talon, Gift of Destiny, Thrusting Lance (http://www.aikidofaq.com/bilder/drawings/or_nikkyo.gif.html)
Kote Gaeshi = Gift of Destiny, Piercing Lance (http://www.aikidofaq.com/bilder/drawings/or_kote-gaeshi.gif.html)
Shiho-nage = Entangled Wing, Wings of Silk ext (http://www.aikidofaq.com/bilder/drawings/or_shiho-nage_2.gif.html)

 

[MJS]

mjs- im studying american kenpo also.
i was very impressed with it a few years back and have been studying eversince, im waiting to see if im ratified as shodan so i have a clear understanding of kenpo techs,this is why i feel ( in my opinion..which may differ from others lol but always in a freindly and respectful way).
that i can comment abuot the kenpo/jujitsu techs.

Thanks for the clarification. One thing to keep in mind though. When I first began training, I was never introduced to the idea of applying these moves on the ground. There were early discussions on here as well as the Kenpo Net, regarding things that were supposedly missing. I was the first to say that I felt that ground work was one thing that was lacking. Needless to say, I had many people telling me that it wasn't so much that the art was lacking, but perhaps it was my training that was lacking, that just because my instructor was unable to show me these things, did not mean that they never existed. Thats pretty much what changed my way of thinking, due to the fact that I haven't seen how every Kenpo instructor out there, such as Larry Tatum, Ron Chapel, or Joe Palanzo teaches, so how would I know if they're teaching certain things or not.

my main concern is that kenpo being primaraly a striking art and employs the use of physics for striking, those physics principles differ greatly from the way a grappler/jujitsu practices when striking on the ground.
i personnaly have always relied on pure grappling when on the ground as opposed to striking, but this was always so i knew i was working my jj.

Techniques such as Spiraling Twig, Crossing Talon, Returning Storm, Gift of Destiny and Obsure Claws to name a few, all have grappling elements in them. Again, I feel that it is important to understand how a grappler operates, so I can adjust my defense accordingly. Just because I'm not standing, that shouldn't mean that my striking is going to go out the window. During some sessions, we'll include striking from the various positions, not only to give it more of a real feeling but also to keep ourselves in check to any openings we may have. Again, I'm not saying that being able to apply some basic techs. on the ground is going to make us an expert grappler. Is the possibility that in a SD situation the person may have some grappling experience? Sure, but I don't think that the average person is going to execute a textbook shoot.

Mike

 

[lenatoi]

OK I don't think the issue here is wether the art was origionally intended to work on the ground, but wether it can or not. I beleive it does. given that beleif, I don't think it degenerats the art by saying this element has always been there.

I also have to say that people beleive that we are giving up our base if we are on our backs. We are not. we still have the ground, use it. The reason people beleive that this aspact is not in kenpo is because they do not see it. Try it before you bash it.

I've learned to adapt some of my techniques to the ground it's a work in progress. BUT it makes me feel better that I can be on the ground and still do what I've trained to do.

It's there, it's different, it's O.K.

 

[psi_radar]

Hey MJS, long time!

I've seen this debate take many forms, but it's still the same. Since doing some BJJ, though, I have some insight.

BJJ is derivative of JJJ, which was initially devoloped as a form of fighting for samurai who had lost their weapon, but were fighting against armored opponents. Therefore, major joint locking moves are the only option, since velnerable areas, like the groin and the eyes were protected.

Kenpo goes for vital areas. The eyes, the groin, the nose, the ears, and many other centrix of the nervous system.

BJJ doesn't see those options. Use them.

To be more descriptive, say you're mounted. The opponent is teeing off on your head. Poke him in the eye, then reach down, grab hold of the equipment and pull it over your head like you're taking off a shirt. Golly, you're not mounted anymore and you can deal as you like. This ain't the ufc. It's life.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Hey MJS, long time!

I've seen this debate take many forms, but it's still the same. Since doing some BJJ, though, I have some insight.

BJJ is derivative of JJJ, which was initially devoloped as a form of fighting for samurai who had lost their weapon, but were fighting against armored opponents. Therefore, major joint locking moves are the only option, since velnerable areas, like the groin and the eyes were protected.

Kenpo goes for vital areas. The eyes, the groin, the nose, the ears, and many other centrix of the nervous system.

BJJ doesn't see those options. Use them.

To be more descriptive, say you're mounted. The opponent is teeing off on your head. Poke him in the eye, then reach down, grab hold of the equipment and pull it over your head like you're taking off a shirt. Golly, you're not mounted anymore and you can deal as you like. This ain't the ufc. It's life.

Good points.

Welcome back! It's good to have you here again. artyon:

 

[MJS]

Hey MJS, long time!

I've seen this debate take many forms, but it's still the same. Since doing some BJJ, though, I have some insight.

BJJ is derivative of JJJ, which was initially devoloped as a form of fighting for samurai who had lost their weapon, but were fighting against armored opponents. Therefore, major joint locking moves are the only option, since velnerable areas, like the groin and the eyes were protected.

Kenpo goes for vital areas. The eyes, the groin, the nose, the ears, and many other centrix of the nervous system.

BJJ doesn't see those options. Use them.

To be more descriptive, say you're mounted. The opponent is teeing off on your head. Poke him in the eye, then reach down, grab hold of the equipment and pull it over your head like you're taking off a shirt. Golly, you're not mounted anymore and you can deal as you like. This ain't the ufc. It's life.

WOW!! What a surprise!! Welcome back dude!!!

You've brought up some great points!

I'll shoot ya an email later on. Got alot to catch up on!!

Mike