Law or Justice......

[Bammx2]

I am just in a fit right now due to a couple of things that have happened here in the UK in the last couple of days...
a man in his 60's was beheaded in broad daylight.
An 87 year old woman was stabbed and killed in her own home in broad daylight.
Those were in the last 24 hours.
A little longer back, a man was stabbed and sliced on a public bus in the middle of the afternoon for a phone.
The police in Nottingham have admitted violent crime is way out hand and they are asking for help from other agencies.
There's more,but you get the idea.
In all these cases,NO ONE intervened and NO ONE ever does over here.
Why?!
Because you get arrested and go to jail for "doing the job of the police".
In all....ONE person was arrested, in the beheading.
Thats only because he never left the scene.He actually told the police to "stay out of it,it's private!"
In the rest,and majority of crimes here, NO ONE saw anything!
I ain't never seen more blind people in my life!
So my question is...
Law or justice....
which do you prefer?

 

[ginshun]

The police in Nottingham have admitted violent crime is way out hand and they are asking for help from other agencies.

Well, maybe if the sherriff would quit worring about Robin Hood and start worring about everyone else, these things wouldn't happen. Sorry, I couldn't help it.


Back on topic, personally I would prefer justice, but I would like to think that is what the law at least tries to provide. I think that they do a relatively good job here, you can't expect any system to be perfect. We do call it the justice system for a reason.

Now, as far as the UK goes, I am sorry, but I really know nothing about their laws or court system.

 

[Tgace]

The problem is your country has placed a wall between them. At least here in the US its just a picket fence.

 

[OUMoose]

If you're speaking of justice in the revenge or vigilante sense, no it's not right. At that point, you are no better than the person you're after, even if it might "feel" more appropriate.

As I've never lived for any memorable amount of time in the UK, I really can't comment on the law enforcement over there. Do you have some news links perhaps that could describe this problem in depth?

 

[Bammx2]

Personally, I have no links...but you punch up anything related to the press here, you'll find loads.
I just look and see whats going on around me and talk to the people here.
I haven't read a newspaper in ages...its the same old crap everyday.
The "law" here..as far as self-defense is concerned, is designed to protect the police. Not the average citizen.
Pepper spray,illegal
Knives,illegal.
Batons of any kind,illegal.
KUBATONS,illegal!
If you carry ANYTHING for self-defense you get arrested for "intent".
By the way...we do have the ONLY psychic police force on the planet.
Here,you get arrested for what you MIGHT do...not for what you have done.
They KNOW you are going to commit a crime if you are in possesion of anything to defend yourself with,hence the "intent" law...and yes...its a law.
And not inflame or show any disrespect,
I have issue with the "vigilante" thing.
I kill a man who killed someone in my family, and he's dead nuts guilty,it does not make me a vigilante.
thats justice.
It doesn't mean I'm gonna do it again.
But I am labelled because I wasn't given "permission" by someone who wouldn't dare to do it themselves.
The "vigilante" who continues to "dole out justice" on his own accord is a frikken lunatic!

For one correction,this ain't my country.
I'm a redneck country boy from N.C and I'm a wessider from columbus ahia!
Which is why I am disgusted by the law here.

And the "Robin hood" statement................
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

 

[Tgace]

Whats the story behind he beheading??

 

[rmcrobertson]

The problem with this argument is, of course, that the United States--which allows and indeed seems to encourage everything that you claim you can't do in England--has about 100 times the murder and violent assault rate that England does.

 

[Makalakumu]

The problem with this argument is, of course, that the United States--which allows and indeed seems to encourage everything that you claim you can't do in England--has about 100 times the murder and violent assault rate that England does.

...and that was accomplished with only five times the population...

 

[Bammx2]

The story behind the beheading has not been released yet.

The only thing said so far was the assailant was quoted as saying "you have had this comming for 20 years".
They haven't said what though. I am dying to find out.So is the rest of the country.

And the crime rate here is "100" times worse than in the US....per capita that is.
Approxamately 270 million in the US, approxamately 60-65 million here in the UK.
2003,there was allegedly 11,000 shootings in the states as opossed to the 28 shootings a DAY here in the UK....10,220.
And there are "no guns" here?!
Stabbings I can't even begin to go into at this moment,the number is phenomanal!
A shotokan instructor here got 15-life for killing a knife weilding assailant in blatant self-defense several years back.
The assailant had a major history of violent crime and the assailants PARENTS petitioned the courts to let the instructor out...to no avail.
But the kicker...the judge said if he was "trained" he should have known better how to handle the situation rather than kill his assailant.
He was unarmed, by the way, and got LOADS of stitches.

 

[Tgace]

http://www.allsafedefense.com/news/International/BritvsUSA.htm
http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/countries.htm
http://www.sfu.ca/~mauser/papers/letters/DrUSOpedshort104.pdf
http://teresi.us/html/writing/gun_control.html

 

[Bammx2]

Thanks for the links...very informative.

But I can't get the last one to open.

 

[rmcrobertson]

While of course I exaggerated and you were quite right to call me on it, the fact of the matter is that the United States has four times the per capital murder rate of England.

Please see:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap


I object to the concept that guns and weapons make one safer. Statistically speaking, it seems quite clear that the more guns, the less safety.

 

[Tgace]

Object all you want....

 

[Bammx2]

I definately not trying to discredit or sway anyones opinion on this subject.

I am always interested in stats and see what the rest of the world has to say on these subjects.
All links provided here I have saved for further reaserch.
I am intrigued,to say the least.
I am going to add stats of my own when I get them sorted(IF I can get them sorted).
Now,depending on the type of crime as far as violence and weapon used,
I do know that south africa is the stabbing capital of the world...BUT....glasgow in scotland is the stabbing capital of all european nations.
Some of skirt wearin poodle chasers think braveheart is still alive!
Sorry,had to quote willy the grounds keeper from the simpsons

I decided a while back,after reading stats from the press, to ask people in the medical field.Paramedics,emergency room staff,etc...
And low and behold...things were slightly different.
Just like the chief constable of nottingham who said his city was in trouble,immediately there was a politician who publicly stated that he was totally wrong and there was no problem at all.
Funny enough...she doesn't live anywhere near nottingham!
God bless spin doctors...they need luvin too

Like I said,I'm gonna try and sort some medical stats from here and see if I can get them posted.

I definately thank you all for your input and look forward to more!

SALUTE!

D

 

[Tgace]

http://hnn.us/articles/871.html

Read the whole thing but heres the point in a nutshell...

These comparisons imply that the decisive factors in national homicide rates are socio-economic and cultural, not availability of some particular form of weaponry. Two decades ago, after evaluating the literature on gun control for the National Institute of Justice three University of Massachusetts sociologists concluded:

It is commonly hypothesized that much criminal violence, especially homicide, occurs simply because the means of lethal violence (firearms) are readily at hand, and, thus, that much homicide would not occur were firearms generally less available. There is no persuasive evidence that supports this view.23





​

The intervening years have only fortified that conclusion.

But what do I know? These are only studys by eggheads....

 

[Bammx2]

Tgace.....

I definately agree with that article you gave.
The "type" of weapon makes no difference.
When I started this thread,it wasn't supposed to a debate on gun crime,or at least that wasn't my intention.
I guess what I was doing was venting about the fact that in this country,the UK,you are NOT allowed to defend yourself like you are allowed to in the rest of the world.
At least in other places,you have options...here, you don't.
As I stated before...we are dealing with a "psychic" law enforcement community.
The majority of the laws put in place that make things like a kubaton illegal for the everage citizen is not to protect the public, they are here to protect the police.Since the UK has the ONLY unarmed police force in the world.
Sure,they have asp batons...but they are not allowed to use them.
There was cctv footage recently of a "kick-off" in Cardiff,wales....
the police got caught up in a situation to where they were way out numbered.They estimated at the end...12 police and about 50 people.
At no point were the police justified in using there ASP's or pepper spray for that matter.Some of the other people actually had knives and the police actually found ASP's on other people.A couple of ASP's were taken from the police by the civilians!
I saw the footage on the BBC...it got pretty bad!
Assaults on police have gone up 300% in the last 2-3 years.
So the things we take for granted back home....is WAY out of line here for totally different reason.
When I do get back home,the first thing I'm gonna do is SHOOT me a cup o tea!

 

[ginshun]

While of course I exaggerated and you were quite right to call me on it, the fact of the matter is that the United States has four times the per capital murder rate of England.

Please see:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap


I object to the concept that guns and weapons make one safer. Statistically speaking, it seems quite clear that the more guns, the less safety.

Look at that exact page. South Africa has comparable gun laws to the US, and yet it has almost 13 times as many per capita murders. Pretty clear statistic eh?


Show me the statistics on anyplace that guns or weapons were banned and then crime went down.

 

[loki09789]

The problem is your country has placed a wall between them. At least here in the US its just a picket fence.

Along those lines, the thing to remember is that there are legal parameters for 'justified' use of force/deadly force that even a well intentioned citizen has to stay within if they try to be a '3rd party' to any situation.

If you go overboard or use bad judgement in the process of doing a good will act, you are still going to be held accountable by the law. It is the same thing in the US. The details of the law may differ, but the nature of the law is the same.

"Justice" is a concept.
"Law" is a codified attempt to maintain socially acceptable standards and exact punishment/reformation for wrongs done.

Justice is like saying "I would prefer 'liberty' to 'constitution.'

 

[Crom]

And the crime rate here is "100" times worse than in the US....per capita that is.
Approxamately 270 million in the US, approxamately 60-65 million here in the UK.
2003,there was allegedly 11,000 shootings in the states as opossed to the 28 shootings a DAY here in the UK....10,220.
And there are "no guns" here?!

The article you quoted (http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowl...s/countries.htm ) says this

"There were 0.15 gun deaths in England and Wales per 100,000 population in the past year, compared with 3.6 per 100,000 in the US."

The figures you were a little misleading, th article states that there were 11,000 shooting homicides in the US and 10,220 "incidents involving firearms" in the UK, only 80 of which were murders.


As for the whole justice/law argument i think, at least in the UK, the law as far as self defence is concerned seems to favour the criminal more than I'm comfortable with. I don't know what could be done to redress the situation though.

Some clarification on the rights of citizens is being done, recently it has been reiterated that reasonable force may be used against someone in your own home but even that isn't clear in everybody's mind e.g. the position on improvised weapons in these situations, how much force is reasonable?

As for carrying firearms it'll never be allowed, nor any other means of self defence (knives, pepper spray etc.) as far as I can see so MA are the only viable option although not much of an equaliser against a guy with a gun. Even that's under threat semingly, I hadn't heard about the shotokan guy before but its making me think that people who train MA aren't even equal to the law anymore.

 

[ginshun]

Just a thought, but I know you said kubotons are illegal to carry. What about flashlights? A Mini Mag-light or Surefire (I carry a C2 Centurian) is basically a aluminum kuboton with a light bulb. Plus, with the Surefire's at least, a flash to the eyes when it is dark will pretty much blind someone for a few seconds allowing a hasty retreat in the least, and an opportunity for an offensive, if the situation calls for that.