Law Enforcement Karambit

[BLACK LION]

from a proactive standpoint.

1. get a locking holster like the blackhawk serpa-lock where a button has to be depressed in order to release the firearm... the gun cannot be removed by trying to tug or pull or force it out the button has to be pressed....
im sure most duty carry guys have a button snap or strap for retention and some may only rely on tightening a screw to retain the firearm....
so a locking holster allieviates the gun being deliberately pulled from your holster and gives you more time to focus on attacking the real threat which is his brain and cns(not his hands trying to grab your gun)

2. you should not be focused on searching or reaching for another tool when your mind and body are readily available.... even if you do successfully acquire your blade while attempting to retain your gun and cut this psycho drug fiend, what makes you think it will stop him and what if the passenger decided not to help and join in taking you out.... what if the situation does not allow you to acquire the blade or cutting tool.... and here you are wrestling away...for what ??? what will ensure you that you can use the weapon even if you retain it???? what if he pulls a blade while wrestling you for your gun???? all this life threatening time being wasted deuling over something useless to you at that very moment(finger not on trigger / no sight picture)...when you could be shutting his nervous system down with your body weapons.... all anyone would have had to do to the psycho meth head was focus on a target of opportunity which in this case would have been his eyes(reaching behind the ears you thrust the thumbs into the orbital cavity in an attempt to force his eyes out his ears) then a double palm to ears to burst the drums and on to his windpipe and whatever injuries the inittal attack lined up.....

 

[jks9199]

from a proactive standpoint.

1. get a locking holster like the blackhawk serpa-lock where a button has to be depressed in order to release the firearm... the gun cannot be removed by trying to tug or pull or force it out the button has to be pressed....
im sure most duty carry guys have a button snap or strap for retention and some may only rely on tightening a screw to retain the firearm....
so a locking holster allieviates the gun being deliberately pulled from your holster and gives you more time to focus on attacking the real threat which is his brain and cns(not his hands trying to grab your gun)

2. you should not be focused on searching or reaching for another tool when your mind and body are readily available.... even if you do successfully acquire your blade while attempting to retain your gun and cut this psycho drug fiend, what makes you think it will stop him and what if the passenger decided not to help and join in taking you out.... what if the situation does not allow you to acquire the blade or cutting tool.... and here you are wrestling away...for what ??? what will ensure you that you can use the weapon even if you retain it???? what if he pulls a blade while wrestling you for your gun???? all this life threatening time being wasted deuling over something useless to you at that very moment(finger not on trigger / no sight picture)...when you could be shutting his nervous system down with your body weapons.... all anyone would have had to do to the psycho meth head was focus on a target of opportunity which in this case would have been his eyes(reaching behind the ears you thrust the thumbs into the orbital cavity in an attempt to force his eyes out his ears) then a double palm to ears to burst the drums and on to his windpipe and whatever injuries the inittal attack lined up.....

There is no "retention holster" that cannot be defeated. Especially by someone who's had nothing better to over the last 5 to 10 years but figure out ways to do so... and I guarantee that plenty of people who "shouldn't" know how to release the gun from any commercial retention holster you can name.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

There is no "retention holster" that cannot be defeated. Especially by someone who's had nothing better to over the last 5 to 10 years but figure out ways to do so... and I guarantee that plenty of people who "shouldn't" know how to release the gun from any commercial retention holster you can name.

Absolutely jks9199. Any retention holster on the market can be defeated and probably will in the moment so it is important to concentrate on skill sets that can give you an advantage.

 

[BLACK LION]

a locking or retention holster is a start and not meant as a fail safe....I am sure there are many people out there still who carry thier sidearm in a buckle or button snap holster....
and i am sure there are many people out there that know how to push a button... its not supposed to be your savior...its supposed to give you a couple more seconds to take appropriate action....
now do you mean to tell me that is better to just have a button snap or buckle for retention on my holster.....?????
the blackhawk serpa-loc holster button is more easily accessed because it is right there.... but fobus and some otheres put the button by where the thumb comes down, which would make it hard for someone to get in there push that button and take your gun from you.... to me it seems highly unlikely and if it does happen that individual was not aware of the situation and not paying attention.... but we should know better right???
how many criminals do you know??? and how many of them know what a "retention holster" is??? how many of them can get in on you, depress the button , grap your gun and use it on you???? it doesnt go down like that... its a frantic rush for the sidearm in which the simplest things like pushing buttons become difficult....


If it was so easy to get a gun from a holster it wouldnt have taken 3 minutes of wrestling to do it..... and he still didnt get it....

 

[Zombievt]

I know of a Vermont Trooper who carries an Emerson Karambit in the sap pocket of his trousers on his off side.

 

[joe-jitsu]

Good post dbain. Another aspect of such a scenario to consider is ... blood makes a knife's handle extremely slick, regardless of the handle material. A karambit can only aid in retention given the ring on it.

EXACTLY. I carry a Gerber Torch II tactical folder for this very reason. It has quite a nice finger guard to protect your hand in case of slippage. Most, if not all, of the duty knives that I've seen on the market do not provide adequate protection for the officer's grip/fingers in case of an accidental slip due to mishandling, wet grip, or whatever.

Being a law enforcement trainer as well as an academy instructor, I can tell you that most officers in my area do NOT get enough weapon retention training as it is, let alone trying to introduce new fine/complex motor skills to officers who might get a couple of department hours of training a year in this---TOPS. This is sad. But it's a great idea if you can talk a group of officers into it that want to work on training and tactics off-duty with you. Then you all can spend as much time on it as you need to.

Good luck to you and your program!

 

[chinto]

i would suggest that LEO's and any one else consult an attorney before carrying a knife on duty.... mainly because juries often do not like blades.. not sure why but i do know that several LEO's and attorneys told me you have less problem from shooting some one then if you slash or stab them.

 

[CDA4555]

This is an outstanding topic for discussion. I also thought about the applications of a duty karambit. I looked at both the 5.11 and Ka-Bar TDI and think that both versions can be a great duty knife that are functional for everyday use, much like your traditional duty knives. The TDI, when placed in a readily accessible location, is a perfect knife for retention and survival scenarios.

With that said, I agree with many of the posters that there is just not enough training in regards to defensive tactics and weapon retention. The majority of police officers do not consistently train in defensive tactics and the use of an exotic blade like the karambit would be too much for the average officer.

With that too being said, the development of a karambit to aid in gun retention is a good idea. The officers, who educate themselves on the use of a karambit, as well as their own use of force policies, would have another great tool to use in the field. I do not see a legal issue with the use of a karambit as apposed to the use of a traditional knife when the officer can articulate the necessity to use force. If deadly force is warranted then deadly force can be used. Then of course there is the civil side.....and we all know how that can go.

 

[sgtmac_46]

i would suggest that LEO's and any one else consult an attorney before carrying a knife on duty.... mainly because juries often do not like blades.. not sure why but i do know that several LEO's and attorneys told me you have less problem from shooting some one then if you slash or stab them.

If it's that or lose my gun and get shot....i'll deal with explaining myself to a jury. One should NEVER let thoughts of liability compromise their safety. Safety FIRST......liability a distant second. Administrators, city attorneys and administrators may disagree......but that's because they can replace a dead cop cheaper than pay off a law suit.

 

[sgtmac_46]

This is an outstanding topic for discussion. I also thought about the applications of a duty karambit. I looked at both the 5.11 and Ka-Bar TDI and think that both versions can be a great duty knife that are functional for everyday use, much like your traditional duty knives. The TDI, when placed in a readily accessible location, is a perfect knife for retention and survival scenarios.

With that said, I agree with many of the posters that there is just not enough training in regards to defensive tactics and weapon retention. The majority of police officers do not consistently train in defensive tactics and the use of an exotic blade like the karambit would be too much for the average officer.

With that too being said, the development of a karambit to aid in gun retention is a good idea. The officers, who educate themselves on the use of a karambit, as well as their own use of force policies, would have another great tool to use in the field. I do not see a legal issue with the use of a karambit as apposed to the use of a traditional knife when the officer can articulate the necessity to use force. If deadly force is warranted then deadly force can be used. Then of course there is the civil side.....and we all know how that can go.

FYI I decided to go with the Ka-bar TDI as it filled the exact niche I had in mind. I carry it on the inner belt on my off-hand side, where it can be drawn in a weapon defense situation and used to cut a suspect off my gun if it ever becomes necessary.

 

[sgtmac_46]

There is no "retention holster" that cannot be defeated. Especially by someone who's had nothing better to over the last 5 to 10 years but figure out ways to do so... and I guarantee that plenty of people who "shouldn't" know how to release the gun from any commercial retention holster you can name.

I guarantee I can take the average officers gun in a struggle within seconds regardless of their retention holster. I've shown my guys in training that retention holsters are merely there to 'hopefully' provide you with a fraction of a seconds delay to launch a counter attack.

 

[sgtmac_46]

from a proactive standpoint.

1. get a locking holster like the blackhawk serpa-lock where a button has to be depressed in order to release the firearm... the gun cannot be removed by trying to tug or pull or force it out the button has to be pressed....
im sure most duty carry guys have a button snap or strap for retention and some may only rely on tightening a screw to retain the firearm....
so a locking holster allieviates the gun being deliberately pulled from your holster and gives you more time to focus on attacking the real threat which is his brain and cns(not his hands trying to grab your gun)

You would be amazed what happens to high impact plastic in a TRUE life and death struggle.....I like Serpa's.......but I can rip one off a belt and shatter it, with the result being a gun in my hand without ever pushing the button. Shear brute force can overcome most retention holsters.

2. you should not be focused on searching or reaching for another tool when your mind and body are readily available.... even if you do successfully acquire your blade while attempting to retain your gun and cut this psycho drug fiend, what makes you think it will stop him and what if the passenger decided not to help and join in taking you out.... what if the situation does not allow you to acquire the blade or cutting tool.... and here you are wrestling away...for what ??? what will ensure you that you can use the weapon even if you retain it???? what if he pulls a blade while wrestling you for your gun???? all this life threatening time being wasted deuling over something useless to you at that very moment(finger not on trigger / no sight picture)...when you could be shutting his nervous system down with your body weapons.... all anyone would have had to do to the psycho meth head was focus on a target of opportunity which in this case would have been his eyes(reaching behind the ears you thrust the thumbs into the orbital cavity in an attempt to force his eyes out his ears) then a double palm to ears to burst the drums and on to his windpipe and whatever injuries the inittal attack lined up.....

A lot of 'body weapons' talk......yet human beings are far harder to 'shut down' with 'body weapons' in reality than it would seem in a dojo. We can talk all day long of 'ripping a man's throat out' or 'poking him in the eye'.....and if he was going to grab his own knife, he's going to.....playing 'body weapons' games isn't going to stop that......stabbing a man in the throat isn't 'dueling'.....playing slap and tickle 'body weapons' games is.

What USUALLY happens with these body weapons techniques, in the real world, is what happens in MMA.....a prolonged grappling session. Maybe someone gets a thumb in an eye, but that doesn't necessarily end anything. The only SURE way to stop an attack is shut down the central nervous system by disrupting it directly, or shutting down the blood flow to the brain.

Now, SLICING another man's throat out by burying a blade in it, and yanking it free? That's a different ball game!


Where I carry my fixed blade TDI there is no searching......I have practiced drawing it hundreds upon hundreds of times. It's a grab, and a punch forward, repeat as needed.

 

[BEATLE JUICE]

I have used both the TDI and the K-bit. I will choose the K-bit every time. With it I can block, trap, hook and do a takedown in almost one motion. The k-bit stayes in the hand. It does not move or slide during hard strikes. I can snake it when grapeling. It flows like water by being able to change directions, range and elivation. It is fast. It feels like it is a part of me rather than being an extension of me. Just my $.02

 

[arnisador]

How about a link for the K-bit? I keep getting false hits!

 

[BEATLE JUICE]

K-bit is short for karambit. I own 12 karambits. My faves are the Dawson small karambit, the Keen Edge LK1 and the Coogler Wraith. I also have a couple of Emersons that are pritty good as well. The thing about the Keen Edge is you can also get the k1 trainer that matches the live blade LK1. I never leave the house without at least one of my k-bits!